WoW Becoming Unfriendly To Women?

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Re: WoW Becoming Unfriendly To Women?

Unread post by Mindsprocket »

I don't really see a problem with here either. The naga never really had tops, just colourful scales which actually accentuated their breasts more. So I actually think the new "topless" model is less sexual because it draws less attention to the breasts. The same for the trees. Putting tops on those would actually sexualize, while at the moment I don't think anyone really pays attention to, or has the hots for, tree boobies.

As for the lack of female models, I'm also disapointed at the Taunka females because the males at least got a small workover. It also makes some of the quest texts a bit silly. Female Tauren: "Could it be we're related?" Me: "Uhm, you look exactly the same as her, so, uh, yes?"

Though with a lot of races I've always just assumed that there are females and we just don't recognise them. The quilboar, for example, deffinitly have females. The leader of RFK is clearly stated to be female in the quest to kill her, at least. Even though she really doesn't look different from any other. And it's realistic I guess. There're plenty of creatures in our world with near identical males and females. So it may not even be fair to say that e.g. the Murlocs only have male models when the model may be unisex. It's not like they look particularly masculine, you know.
Ryai wrote: So I'm just going to say. Men and Women are not equal body wise- meaning men and women have different rights about how much skin they can choose to show.
It's of course true that men and women have different bodies, but there're cultures where everyone just walks around stark naked and nobody cares. Sure, every culture has it's own dresscodes and that's fine. But dresscodes aren't laws of nature. They really are purely cultural and constantly changing. In light of the dresscodes of a hundred years ago we all look like strumpets. And I can safely say that without knowing what any of you are dressed like exactly. Honestly, just seeing a naked human body is not in and of itself harmful to children or anyone. So I don't see a reason why women shouldn't be alowed to be topless in public if they want to.

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Re: WoW Becoming Unfriendly To Women?

Unread post by Ryai »

Mindsprocket wrote:Honestly, just seeing a naked human body is not in and of itself harmful to children or anyone. So I don't see a reason why women shouldn't be alowed to be topless in public if they want to.
Tell that to the pedophiles that they caught near here using a 'nude beach' excuse to expose themselves to children :D

It's also the fact that it's a common curtesy to not do it. Not everyone wants to see homosexuals OR straight couples making out in public. It's why sex is also kept behind closed doors. And I admit I don't like to see every man shirtless, just a select few and really only when it's decent to do so ...

... like firemen washing cars.. <3

er anyways.

Because seriously it's just, I can be topless infront of my computer and tbh sometimes I have to with how hot it gets because this little fan I have does shit for sometimes triple digits. But the difference is, it's in the privacy of my own home where I won't go flashing little children, men or getting oogled by perverts.

That's the other thing. Perverts. Half the people I've seen pushing nudity rights and clothing optional rights are ignoring the fact that sir I don't want to see your mr happy or madam I don't want to see your perky boobs that you barely keep wrapped up anyways. I am not a prude but honestly some things should be kept under wraps and left to the imagination than aired out nilly willy in the sunlight. So what if you have a perfect ass and set of tits, fine, good for you, put a thong on atleast and go to the beach where you belong if you want to show off.

Because honestly if you really didn't like clothes there ARE places you can go to enjoy freedom. Private places. Places far away from my eyes and the eyes of children as if my father would do everything to NOT expose himself to me when I was younger and I was a clingy little child because he would go on one/two/three year debts and if a man could keep from exposing himself to little children, then surely that in itself should be enough proof on why certain body parts should remain covered at all times unless you are A: in a designated area or B: in a private place reserved for it or C: out in the wilderness with the bears and bees and birds.

Because the thing is? People who streak, who want to be naked in public and all that, who want to be an exbitionist and want to force their view upon me? Force their wants upon me? Aren't respecting the fact that I don't want to see them.

You DON'T need to be naked to appreciate the human body.

Because saying that you have to run around without clothes to appreciate something is stupid.

Appreciate what God or whatever deity you worshiped gave you/what your mother and father gifted you with/what your life has given you and don't use petty excuses of clothes are oppressing me from fully appreciating myself and or the human body.

Because no, just, no.
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Re: WoW Becoming Unfriendly To Women?

Unread post by Saturo »

Now, I can't even understand why you're having this discussion. Over here you don't want to walk around topless, except for on extraordinarily warm summer days, and even then you'll feel chilly pretty soon. I'm perfectly happy with my hoodie and down jacket, thankyouverymuch. xD

Ryai does bring up a good argument tough, perverts. You don't want them near you, now do you?
And I admit I don't like to see every man shirtless, just a select few and really only when it's decent to do so ...

... like firemen washing cars.. <3
Oh-kay... Anyhow, yeah, also a valid point. It will bring the shame of being "not perfect" even more. Because if everyone were to walk around without shirts, I believe some people would feel "less pretty" when they see someone "more pretty". Yeah, I can't make my point... I mean, like, it would just make some select people feel ashamed of themselves, while some others would just be all "this is great yay!". And some people I just don't want to see naked either. Heck, that's with the majority of the people I meet. :P

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Re: WoW Becoming Unfriendly To Women?

Unread post by Kayb »

Mindsprocket wrote:The quilboar, for example, deffinitly have females. The leader of RFK is clearly stated to be female in the quest to kill her, at least. Even though she really doesn't look different from any other.
Actually, all the female Quilboars can be quite easily identified in that they all have large breasts. All Quilboar casters are female, look at their model compared to the hunter and warrior models etc. Only the casters have breasts.

Which I find odd, lore wise. According to written lore, females have no place in Quilboar society. They are lower than poop for the most part. But then, in game, all the casters are female, and the afore mentioned Razorfen leader is a female.

Whats more confusing on that matter is that the written lore came after the game, yet nothing in the game was changed to reflect it. Not that Blizz have always been awesome at following their own lore of course...
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Re: WoW Becoming Unfriendly To Women?

Unread post by Mindsprocket »

Kayb wrote: Actually, all the female Quilboars can be quite easily identified in that they all have large breasts.
They do? oO *wanders off to WoWWiki to look at a picture of Charlga Razorflank* Hey, you're right. I never noticed that. Well ok, they're hardly different from males then :P


About the whole public nudity thing, I want to say that I'm not actually a nudist, I don't want to be nude or even just topless in public. But I wouldn't mind if it was legal. Afterall, just because it's legal doesn't mean I have to do it. I have the legal right to wear a mini skirt, but I don't because I don't like it, doesn't mean I have something against women who do or that I wish they would be sent to jail for it.

But I have to say that I don't like the perverts excuse in this discussion. Honestly, the whole "women have to cover themselves so that men don't lose it" spiel is also the reasoning for burkas and even in western societies a frequent excuse for sexual abuse ("she had it coming, dressed like that") which sadly comes from both men and women. The truth is, no matter how modest you think your clothes are, there's someone out there who thinks you look like whore and are "asking for it" and enough people to agree with him/her.

And covering yourself so that you don't offend anyone? Well, I've actually been told that I'm too fat for a swimsuit (I don't even wear bikinis) and that nobody wants to see that. I guess I should really stay away from public beaches now to make sure I don't upset anyone. Honestly, demanding "Cover yourself, you're ugly" is just plain rude. It's currently quite hot around here (I'm actually in Helsinki atm, who would've thought that Finland could be so hot?) and I see a lot of shirtless men. And yes, a lot of them aren't all that attractive. But you know what? That doesn't bother me in the slightest. I have never in my life seen a human being that was so ugly I couldn't bear the sight, not in real life anyway. I really don't understand people that are actually upset by unattractiveness. Really, if it's so bad for you, just look the other way or something. No need to become hostile.

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Re: WoW Becoming Unfriendly To Women?

Unread post by Saturo »

That wasn't my point, Mindsprocket. I didn't mean "You're ugly, cower up!", I meant that some people don't feel good about themselves.

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Re: WoW Becoming Unfriendly To Women?

Unread post by Mindsprocket »

I know it wasn't your point, Saturo, but I think it was Ryai's point with her "I don't want to see them". I get your point, but as I said, I think it should be legal, not mandatory. ;) And if people are upset by seeing someone who looks better than them, well, I guess that actually happens wether they're dressed or not.

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Re: WoW Becoming Unfriendly To Women?

Unread post by KeemZ »

Ryai wrote:
Mindsprocket wrote:Honestly, just seeing a naked human body is not in and of itself harmful to children or anyone. So I don't see a reason why women shouldn't be alowed to be topless in public if they want to.
Tell that to the pedophiles that they caught near here using a 'nude beach' excuse to expose themselves to children :D

It's also the fact that it's a common curtesy to not do it. Not everyone wants to see homosexuals OR straight couples making out in public. It's why sex is also kept behind closed doors. And I admit I don't like to see every man shirtless, just a select few and really only when it's decent to do so ...

... like firemen washing cars.. <3

er anyways.

Because seriously it's just, I can be topless infront of my computer and tbh sometimes I have to with how hot it gets because this little fan I have does shit for sometimes triple digits. But the difference is, it's in the privacy of my own home where I won't go flashing little children, men or getting oogled by perverts.

That's the other thing. Perverts. Half the people I've seen pushing nudity rights and clothing optional rights are ignoring the fact that sir I don't want to see your mr happy or madam I don't want to see your perky boobs that you barely keep wrapped up anyways. I am not a prude but honestly some things should be kept under wraps and left to the imagination than aired out nilly willy in the sunlight. So what if you have a perfect ass and set of tits, fine, good for you, put a thong on atleast and go to the beach where you belong if you want to show off.

Because honestly if you really didn't like clothes there ARE places you can go to enjoy freedom. Private places. Places far away from my eyes and the eyes of children as if my father would do everything to NOT expose himself to me when I was younger and I was a clingy little child because he would go on one/two/three year debts and if a man could keep from exposing himself to little children, then surely that in itself should be enough proof on why certain body parts should remain covered at all times unless you are A: in a designated area or B: in a private place reserved for it or C: out in the wilderness with the bears and bees and birds.

Because the thing is? People who streak, who want to be naked in public and all that, who want to be an exbitionist and want to force their view upon me? Force their wants upon me? Aren't respecting the fact that I don't want to see them.

You DON'T need to be naked to appreciate the human body.

Because saying that you have to run around without clothes to appreciate something is stupid.

Appreciate what God or whatever deity you worshiped gave you/what your mother and father gifted you with/what your life has given you and don't use petty excuses of clothes are oppressing me from fully appreciating myself and or the human body.

Because no, just, no.

Agreed totally. But I am one of those moob guys that walks around with his shirt off in the yard :D
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Re: WoW Becoming Unfriendly To Women?

Unread post by cowmuflage »

remmber guys that some races may not breed like us IE they lay eggs. if they were egg layers than it would be dumb for the females to have boobs, now i'm sure naga lay eggs but they have boobs cos they once where elves. I guess they could put some eggs under the tail of some Makrura to show that they where female that would be cool.
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Re: WoW Becoming Unfriendly To Women?

Unread post by GethlarNomudac »


Actually, there are quite a few places IRL, my home province of Ontario included, where it's perfectly legal for women to walk around topless if they want to.

.
REALLY :D im in ontario, and ive yet to see that...
edit: srry if i offended someone..
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Re: WoW Becoming Unfriendly To Women?

Unread post by Vicario »

Ryai wrote:
Vicario wrote:I beg to differ. WoW has a ton of shirtless guys and even some scantily-clad guys.

I have not seen them this is a liieeee
A few shirtless guys in WoW:

-Illidan
-Demon Hunters (Belf/Nelf)
-Male Auchenai Monks (Draenei)

There are also numerous guys (especially Horde NPCs) that wear harnesses.
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Re: WoW Becoming Unfriendly To Women?

Unread post by Cerah »

GethlarNomudac wrote:

Actually, there are quite a few places IRL, my home province of Ontario included, where it's perfectly legal for women to walk around topless if they want to.

.
REALLY :D im in ontario, and ive yet to see that...
edit: srry if i offended someone..
I said it was legal, I didn't say it was a common practice.

And don't worry, the only people you offended were other Canadians for adding to the "we're-so-polite-we-apologize-for-EVERYTHING" myth :p

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Re: WoW Becoming Unfriendly To Women?

Unread post by Renle »

Oh-kay... Anyhow, yeah, also a valid point. It will bring the shame of being "not perfect" even more. Because if everyone were to walk around without shirts, I believe some people would feel "less pretty" when they see someone "more pretty". Yeah, I can't make my point... I mean, like, it would just make some select people feel ashamed of themselves, while some others would just be all "this is great yay!". And some people I just don't want to see naked either. Heck, that's with the majority of the people I meet. :P
This is a very valid point. For example: I personally don't like to wear sleeveless shirts. It makes me feel uncomfortable (I don't like showing off my armpits, they are gross lol) and I also don't like to expose cleavage. (lol Saurfang, I'm a wow nerd). This is because this clothing makes me uncomfortable. However my mother seems to think it's because I'm not 'proud enough of my body to flaunt it'. aka a 'prude'.

So basically society today has introduced this new social norm that if you got it, you are required to flaunt it, and if you don't you are a prude.
Now imagine that the social norm is 'if it's warm outside and you feel like it you should walk around nude' There are going to be a lot of people that would not be comfortable with this, not just for having to see other people walk around nekkid, but because they themselves do not wish to be clothing optional. Now your a prude simply because you choose to wear clothing :/

Not to mention the fact that though people of every body type would be perfectly free to dress as they please, this doesn't stop the douche-bags of society (who are extremely common and widespread) from taunting, and harassing those people they feel shouldn't be in the nude.
Because the thing is? People who streak, who want to be naked in public and all that, who want to be an exbitionist and want to force their view upon me? Force their wants upon me? Aren't respecting the fact that I don't want to see them.
This also show's an unhealthy amount of attention seeking, and the last thing we need to do is encourage them.
I know there are plenty of nudists out there who do not do it to seek attention. They dress as they please in the privacy of their own homes, and in area's where clothing optional is a norm.

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Re: WoW Becoming Unfriendly To Women?

Unread post by Epicfail »

What a fun topic. :D

Firstly, what is decent and not decent is completely a society based structure that you are taught. If 2 year olds had their way, we'd all be running around the neighborhood naked and just as happy and free as we can be. Those of you with kids know this :) As I grow older, I find I prefer women in dresses and prefer a classic "sultry" woman over the girls just falling out everywhere. A woman with that sharp "come hither" look and an inviting smile does more for me nowadays than lolboobs did for me at 15... and I have to be honest here... they did ALOT for me back then. :) Katherine Hepburn is more of a woman in my mind than more than half the currently popular female actresses out there combined. Sadly, our society has turned towards the instant "wow" factor of lolboobs and a woman's sexuality is measured in the shapeliness of her bodess and skin factor. Our youngins see this and learn to deal with it accordingly and society pushes the boundaries further. The society is no more wrong for teaching this than a society halfway around the world teaches to cover a womans body completely or else she's scandalous.

Secondly, women in this society are why women kill themselves for "the golden look". Modern Advertising is built around the planned obsolescence or revival of a fashion and literally hinges on women believing whole heartedly that a "new and revolutionary" product is EXACTLY what they need, no pause for price, to be wanted by any man and shine brighter than the next girl. Every beauty ad or commercial that hasn't made the majority of women consider themselves less valuable or beautiful without the new Brand X natural formula has failed. Essentially, its all smoke and mirrors, but women, including my own wife eat it up like its candy. Its a programmed response from a life of being told every commercial break that they aren't good enough and need to pay 50 bucks for something to make them better. Makes for one hell of a market and one messed up population of women...

Thirdly, Warcraft at its heart was a game about units mercilessly slaughtering each other on a battle map. Whole armies collide and tear one another apart. To be completely honest, when I first heard the medic die in starcraft broodwars, I took pause for a moment. Actually, it was too long of a pause because hydralisks tore down all my ranks and I lost like 10 medics at once. yeah. bad call on my part, BUT it made me notice just why Blizz hadn't been putting female units in previous to that. Nowadays, shoot... send a whole fleet of valkyres out there... awe crap. fricken towers. oh well, queue up some more... There were no female marrines. In the old warcraft, I think all the units were guys. Now there are women intermingled for a bit of flavor (WC3), but its a sausage fest for the most part. When they translated this to the MMO, they were weighed down with the burden of social conventions because these weren't just 2D units with scripted personalities we're sending to thier doom. Some game devs actually take the female model out of the game completely and just have a neuter race with male or female dominant characteristics. It makes sense when you want one race to have an overwhelmingly bulky traditional male body type to them. "Big Ugly" came from somewhere and its easier to believe they were born sprouting out of the ground then sputtered out from between the legs of a large granite Betty Boop. ymmv. :)

Lastly, and this is more to the OP, you sense an inequity in all this but where does that inequity really lie? At what point are there enough women characters in the game? At what point are the asthetics of a woman-ish character in game truly acceptable? Would you really create a woman character who has anything less than a perfect figure? Lets be serious. My wife loves the heck out of the destructive capacity of her rogue but she used to go straight for the leather thongs. "Sweetie, what do you think? These new leggings are epic and give +15 to all my stats, but they don't really match the rest of my outfit. Maybe I'll just stick with [Loincloth of the Monkey]"

I think the real problem here is that the feminine psychie is so varied that a man will never be able to create a game with enough variety of choice or interchangability of choices (changes of heart/mind) nor could he have a chance to make enough believable female characters with the depth that pixels can convey. The technology just isn't there yet to truly capture the female essence and trying to do so now would only serve to either create laughable 2D facilimies of the real thing or cause a space time paradox and destroy the universe. The only feasible alternative to have any semi-believable women characters in the game are to give women the tools to create blue sex vixens with horns and a tail and let the women themselves do the driving. Please forgive the devs and art teams for their total and complete failure to capture and display a true to life woman's asthetic. One day, the technology will be there and we'll all have to do quantum theory mathmatics in third grade to keep up with it. Actually, I think skynet was a woman...

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Re: WoW Becoming Unfriendly To Women?

Unread post by Renle »

@ Epicfail:

I Lawl'd
I Lawl'd muchly.
Long quote inc.
Warcraft at its heart was a game about units mercilessly slaughtering each other on a battle map. Whole armies collide and tear one another apart. To be completely honest, when I first heard the medic die in starcraft broodwars, I took pause for a moment. Actually, it was too long of a pause because hydralisks tore down all my ranks and I lost like 10 medics at once. yeah. bad call on my part, BUT it made me notice just why Blizz hadn't been putting female units in previous to that. Nowadays, shoot... send a whole fleet of valkyres out there... awe crap. fricken towers. oh well, queue up some more... There were no female marrines. In the old warcraft, I think all the units were guys. Now there are women intermingled for a bit of flavor (WC3), but its a sausage fest for the most part. When they translated this to the MMO, they were weighed down with the burden of social conventions because these weren't just 2D units with scripted personalities we're sending to thier doom. Some game devs actually take the female model out of the game completely and just have a neuter race with male or female dominant characteristics. It makes sense when you want one race to have an overwhelmingly bulky traditional male body type to them. "Big Ugly" came from somewhere and its easier to believe they were born sprouting out of the ground then sputtered out from between the legs of a large granite Betty Boop. ymmv.
Looking at it from this perspective, I actually feel a little honored that there aren't as many races with obvious female counterparts. If one were to look at it in the sense of Bliz developers showing a kind of chivalry by not creating a bunch of women destined to be slaughtered again and again, day in and day out for questing, grinding, farming or just general homicidal fun.
It's kind of like the same reason that of all the children NPC's in the game, not ONE of them can be attacked or killed by anyone despite the child NPC's faction.

Nice points Epicfail, though you should tack on a TL;DR, because it's only my interest in this topic and over all patience that got me to read it all ;P

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Re: WoW Becoming Unfriendly To Women?

Unread post by Mania »

Renle wrote:Looking at it from this perspective, I actually feel a little honored that there aren't as many races with obvious female counterparts. If one were to look at it in the sense of Bliz developers showing a kind of chivalry by not creating a bunch of women destined to be slaughtered again and again, day in and day out for questing, grinding, farming or just general homicidal fun.
It's kind of like the same reason that of all the children NPC's in the game, not ONE of them can be attacked or killed by anyone despite the child NPC's faction.
*raise eyebrow* I'm not interested in chivalry. I'm interested in equality. And unlike children, who arguably should be protected, Blizzard doesn't get to make that decision for me.
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Re: WoW Becoming Unfriendly To Women?

Unread post by Saturo »

Mania wrote:
Renle wrote:Looking at it from this perspective, I actually feel a little honored that there aren't as many races with obvious female counterparts. If one were to look at it in the sense of Bliz developers showing a kind of chivalry by not creating a bunch of women destined to be slaughtered again and again, day in and day out for questing, grinding, farming or just general homicidal fun.
It's kind of like the same reason that of all the children NPC's in the game, not ONE of them can be attacked or killed by anyone despite the child NPC's faction.
*raise eyebrow* I'm not interested in chivalry. I'm interested in equality. And unlike children, who arguably should be protected, Blizzard doesn't get to make that decision for me.
Aye, similar to some of the white knights I've seen. It's just... Some things should just be there. I mean, we still slaughter females of the races that are already in the game, why shouldn't we be able to kill female tuskarr and such?

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Re: WoW Becoming Unfriendly To Women?

Unread post by cowmuflage »

I think with ogres any one could be a female and we may just not beable to tell. I mean they all have pretty big boobs to start with anyway XD

i don't get this so its fine to have males who will be slaughtered again and again but a female being killed is wrong? isnt that like being sexest to men as well as women?
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Re: WoW Becoming Unfriendly To Women?

Unread post by Mania »

cowmuflage wrote:isnt that like being sexest to men as well as women?
Good point. One of the things about sexism that people sometimes don't get is that it affects both males and females. It's not a woman thing - it's a people thing.
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Re: WoW Becoming Unfriendly To Women?

Unread post by Sonata »

As same as feminism and sovinism (typo here) are female and male....thought I don't know if they can be related ain't a sexist somebody who hates too much sex appeal in public? *checks it out*

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