Cataclysm Release Date + Beta - Build 13117

[Slickrock]

Slick, I am honestly ashamed to call you a servermate. I guess my friend was right when she said Alliance on Windrunner has better raids but is full of complete assholes, jerkfaces and idiots, while Horde basically sucks at raiding, but is MUCH nicer.

OK, I'm done here.

How do I delete a forums account?... I don't need to put up with this.

[Vephriel]

Alright, discuss and rage over the changes all you want, but do not start point fingers and making accusatory statements towards other forum members.

[Palladiamorsdeus]

Alright, calm it down, all of you. Discuss it civilly, or don't discuss it at all! Keep it clean, keep it nice. Got it?

[Gelannerai]

I really hope you're right, but I remember how they "fixed" BM for Wrath after 3.0.8.

BM isnt that bad. Infact, they shine more than given credit for. People will bitch but those who aren't stupid and trollish will admire and applaud those who go outside the norm.

See, it's my experience that in a progression-minded guild, that isn't the case. My guild doesn't have a problem letting me run whatever spec I wish, but the problem is I typically do at least 1K dps more running MM than BM, and it makes me feel awful to selfishly run a BM spec if we're having trouble downing a boss. Originality =/= Practicality unfortunately.

[Senna-Umbreon]

*Hides* Eep! Sowwy! I just have a tendancy to let my anger get the better of me at times.. And well, I'm just sick of people saying they're going to quit the game just because of some nerf or something.... Shutting up now. *Flees*

[Lisaara]

I really hope you're right, but I remember how they "fixed" BM for Wrath after 3.0.8.

BM isnt that bad. Infact, they shine more than given credit for. People will bitch but those who aren't stupid and trollish will admire and applaud those who go outside the norm.

See, it's my experience that in a progression-minded guild, that isn't the case. My guild doesn't have a problem letting me run whatever spec I wish, but the problem is I typically do at least 1K dps more running MM than BM, and it makes me feel awful to selfishly run a BM spec if we're having trouble downing a boss. Originality =/= Practicality unfortunately.

I think thats only for progression/hardcore raiding guilds. But for those of us who run with a casual, fun raiding guild....BM's are quite common and we breeze through all the way up to the blood queen without any wipes.

[Gelannerai]

See, it's my experience that in a progression-minded guild, that isn't the case. My guild doesn't have a problem letting me run whatever spec I wish, but the problem is I typically do at least 1K dps more running MM than BM, and it makes me feel awful to selfishly run a BM spec if we're having trouble downing a boss. Originality =/= Practicality unfortunately.

I think thats only for progression/hardcore raiding guilds. But for those of us who run with a casual, fun raiding guild....BM's are quite common and we breeze through all the way up to the blood queen without any wipes.

And there's the rub. BM should be viable no matter what your guild runs. Mine's working on ICC Heroics atm. No way I'm going to hamstring my guild by taking my favorite spec in there, and that's pathetic.

[Lisaara]

See, it's my experience that in a progression-minded guild, that isn't the case. My guild doesn't have a problem letting me run whatever spec I wish, but the problem is I typically do at least 1K dps more running MM than BM, and it makes me feel awful to selfishly run a BM spec if we're having trouble downing a boss. Originality =/= Practicality unfortunately.

I think thats only for progression/hardcore raiding guilds. But for those of us who run with a casual, fun raiding guild....BM's are quite common and we breeze through all the way up to the blood queen without any wipes.

And there's the rub. BM should be viable no matter what your guild runs. Mine's working on ICC Heroics atm. No way I'm going to hamstring my guild by taking my favorite spec in there, and that's pathetic.

While we dont do total heroics yet, we have done lootship heroic with BMs but lootship heroic isn't really the best example.

I do agree, BM should be good for heroic versions too!

[Slickrock]

I think thats only for progression/hardcore raiding guilds. But for those of us who run with a casual, fun raiding guild....BM's are quite common and we breeze through all the way up to the blood queen without any wipes.

And pugs... trying to get in pugs raids as BM can be a nightmare. Looks like that may continue.

[SpiritBinder]

Look, I'm normally one of the first people to say "Don't panic" about these things. But those numbers are a massive nerf. It nerfs BM's pets, it nerfs BM's only 'shot' type ability, it nerfs BM's focus regen ((Which in turn nerfs pet numbers MORE because of Wild Hunt)) and it nerfs BM's signature ability BW. The nerfs range from bad to horrendous. This was not a balancing patch, this was a "Knock it to the floor." patch. I am sure they'll build it back up ((PRay it doesn't take them another year)) but unfortunately for BM, that's probably not going to happen before 4.01 goes live.

When I read the numbers being changed I digress, I really could not understand why so much was nerfed over so much of the spec. I've been saying Beta is beta for a while too now, but this ones not even Beta.... is much much closer.


and as for BW, It has taken hit, after hit, after hit.

Bestial Wrath now lasts 10 sec. (Down from 18 sec)
Bestial Wrath no longer works with Readiness ( <-- yeah this one was probably needed)
Bestial Wrath no longer provides and CC immunity
Bestial Wrath now causes 20% additional damage, down from 50%.

Its not looking like "Big Red" pet anymore, but more like "mildly annoyed, but can't really be arsed doing much about it, pinkish" pet.

[Lisaara]

I think thats only for progression/hardcore raiding guilds. But for those of us who run with a casual, fun raiding guild....BM's are quite common and we breeze through all the way up to the blood queen without any wipes.

And pugs... trying to get in pugs raids as BM can be a nightmare. Looks like that may continue.

Funny, I don't have any problems. Neither does my 2 other BM hunter friends.

[Adam-Savage]

Pets are not hitting like trucks, not on beta. KC is, criticals are, and like I said, balancing them is fine. But taking over half of BW time out, taking down the mastery scales and taking down over half as well adds up to a HUGE amount of overall DPS shot. That's over HALF of our BW time gone.

I'm not on Beta so I can't say what the numbers where. I only go by what I see on the PTR. What I seen on the PTR is that hunters where hitting alot harder then they should. 40k crit was pretty stupid. My pet was doing 5k each attack it when I checked the combat log so I would say that's nice number. I can see why the Nerfed mastery. I was able to bring my mastery up 512 which is 19.44%. This increases damage done by my pet by 48%. That's a pretty large amount right there. So with the new changes I go from 48.6% to 33.04%. It's a hit to the mastery but that that bad really. However Bestial Wrath took a hard hit. It's going to be interesting to see the numbers when it gets to PTR.

[Slickrock]

I'm not on Beta so I can't say what the numbers where.

Sadly, I there isn't a lot of good reporting coming out (other than "Your pet killed my pally" videos..). Even on EJ the hunter community is pretty dead compared to what it used to be.

I think those 40k crits were a few patches ago, but with their back and forth on PTR vs Beta it's hard to see what's current. Daily patches ftl.

It also should be noted that strange things can come across as patch builds are grabbed while various groups are working on things. But the trend here isn't good. Hopefully we can get some good numbers from someone on Beta.

But with all the various changes, I still think they really don't know how to fix BM now that they focused it on KC. I forsee bad scaling problems.

[Adam-Savage]

I'm not on Beta so I can't say what the numbers where.

Sadly, I there isn't a lot of good reporting coming out (other than "Your pet killed my pally" videos..). Even on EJ the hunter community is pretty dead compared to what it used to be.

I think those 40k crits were a few patches ago, but with their back and forth on PTR vs Beta it's hard to see what's current. Daily patches ftl.

It also should be noted that strange things can come across as patch builds are grabbed while various groups are working on things. But the trend here isn't good. Hopefully we can get some good numbers from someone on Beta.

But with all the various changes, I still think they really don't know how to fix BM now that they focused it on KC. I forsee bad scaling problems.

The 40k crit is on the current PTR.

[Lisaara]

I'm not on Beta so I can't say what the numbers where.

Sadly, I there isn't a lot of good reporting coming out (other than "Your pet killed my pally" videos..). Even on EJ the hunter community is pretty dead compared to what it used to be.

I think those 40k crits were a few patches ago, but with their back and forth on PTR vs Beta it's hard to see what's current. Daily patches ftl.

It also should be noted that strange things can come across as patch builds are grabbed while various groups are working on things. But the trend here isn't good. Hopefully we can get some good numbers from someone on Beta.

But with all the various changes, I still think they really don't know how to fix BM now that they focused it on KC. I forsee bad scaling problems.

The 40k crit is on the current PTR.

Looks like a good number to me.

[Slickrock]

The 40k crit is on the current PTR.

Looks like a good number to me.

The problem also is everyone is focusing on crits, and not focusing on sustained damage. There are other ways to control crits if those are the issue.

[Rikaku]

The 40k crit is on the current PTR.

The problem is PTR's don't matter.

Not to to like make anyone mad or say NO YOU'RE WRONG! Just hear me out for a sec.

Even if the PTR version makes it to live, the beta is more of the "newest model". So even if 4.0 goes live with 40k critting pets, it's only until Dec 7th when 4.0.3 launches and fixes that with whatever beta build they end on. So I feel like PTR numbers aren't that useful.

Again, I agree. 40k crit pets is bad. I agree that needed to be lowered and balanced out.

I think thats only for progression/hardcore raiding guilds. But for those of us who run with a casual, fun raiding guild....BM's are quite common and we breeze through all the way up to the blood queen without any wipes.

Sadly, not everyone has this experience. Saying that one type of guild should have no problem doesn't mean that should be a solution =( My guild is very casual and fun and raids, but that doesn't mean that it justifies bringing me to a raid as BM when another hunter with lower gear than me as SV can outdps me. You don't have to be in a hardcore guild to have this happen.

The problem that strikes me is that Ghostcrawler basically admitted that SV is 2k DPS ahead of the other specs, and said that as this build came out. Knowing that the devs still pushed out this patch?? I mean honestly, that blows my mind and makes me concerned that they really have no idea what they're doing lol

However, this doesn't mean I'm saying "we're all forced into this now".
No. I'm not. I've been BM specced since 2004. I'm not changing that now. However, that also doesn't mean I'm just gonna roll over and take the hits silently as I see one of my favorite class' specs take a hit this hard; I'd do it for SV and MM too. I want Hunter specs all competitive. Not one as a "pokemon collecting" spec and another as dps, all of them as dps.

[Palladiamorsdeus]

I get the point, 40K criticals on PTR. It's not that way on Beta. You are going off of PTR numbers, I am going off of my beta numbers. Where the loss of damage is going to be extremely large. The last patch HALVED the damage pet's were doing anyway, which put them at a more comfortable, less "OMG!" place. This patch will drop them even MORE, and with Cataclysm numbers, that's not a good thing. Its a floor nerf, it's something BLizzard has done before. I can't recall whom they were nerfing, but they said their preference was to nerf it HARD, and then build it back up, instead of doing one little nerf at a time. I think it was retribution.

[Lisaara]

Yes, it was ret. They fixed Ret rather well.

[Adam-Savage]

The reason for the focus on PTR numbers is it those numbers that will eventually be effected by the newest Beta build. So we try to compare the new to the old see how much of impact this has had.