Horde/Alliance 'Evil' debate

[Karrosh]

I may be Alliance to the bone, but I still say "Cairne for president!".

Aw, I love Cairne! Poor guy doesn't get enough recognition. I'd second that notion

Thirded!

Also, excellent posts Anansi. Well researched, and well written in both tone and content.

[Vephriel]

I tink dat you all have missed de bigger point here… Good Hoard, Bad Alliance Vice Versa, who cares. De fact dat it all boils down to here is dat Gnomes are de ultimate evil.

Let me be proving it to yas

All Beings are capable of infinite good and evil = True
Gnomes have done more evil (Irradiating a city, toying with destructive science, having scary faces on child like bodies) den good = True
Infinite is anutta word for Ultimate = True
Gnomes are de smallest of all de races = True
If ya put de same amount of a substance into a smalla container it gets more concentrated = True

THEREFORE

Gnome = A Ultimate amount of evil in a space more concentrated den any other race = Ultimate evil

As you be exiting de thread please pick up de torches and pitchforks by de door

Truer words have never been spoken, my friend.

[Anansi]

Also, excellent posts Anansi. Well researched, and well written in both tone and content.

Thank you for saying so!

[SpiritBinder]

I never said the Horde was outright evil. I said they were more evil than the Alliance. Not as much as before WoW came along but the difference is still there. The one race I have never even made a character of is the Orcs. I just can't bring myself to play one.

Alright, it's offcial.....



Manina is evil !!!!!! *runs and hides, cowering fear*

[Rarako]

Yay Cairne!

Ketchaeacha you make my day, every day. ^_^

I have played both Alli and Horde for quite some time. Both factions have done questionable things, both factions have been violently attacked for little to no reason, both have done the same, and both have acted inhumane towards the other both pre and post the start of WoW. The only real difference I've seen is that the Horde tend to do something questionable and let everyone know about it and why they did it, while the Alliance tend to mask it and sweep things under the rug, then only admit to it if they have no way to get out of it. Though even this differs depending on which race it is with in each faction. Case in point no one side is evil compared to the other.

[fatman]

Just in case some players are wondering: Alliance and Horde will never be at peace, because of gameplay reasons, not logic.

Good or evil? Having played both sides and talked to NPCs on several quests, I wouldn't say that either side have a "good" or "evil" feeling inherent in them. Expansionist, maybe. Idiotic, definitely. Xenophobic, maybe the Humans and Blood Elves.

Both sides also have a "kill them all" attitude when it comes to enemies like Centaurs, Nagas, Murlocs etc. So by this, you can say both sides are evil.

However, the Forsaken will always have my sympathy. Sylvannas' quote, "what are we except slaves to this torment" and that Forsaken barmaid in Brill who cried when she received the farewell letter from her beloved who had become a mindless undead, makes me feel very sorry for them.

[Kayb]

i doubt anyone questions that the two faction wills never achieve a true peace between them. Its a pretty safe bet to assume that there will be all out war and other manners of open conflict very soon. Afterall it is called WARcraft.

In any case, I'd love to see some inner strife happen within the individual races, the Forsaken had a great story going with the Wrathgate affair. Nightelves could certainly use some sort of turmoil to stir their pot a bit too, as could Draeni (desperatly).

[Sonata]

Naw Blizz is never going to stop the war because the income would stop, oh how cruel is the truth.
But fanfiction exists!

Well there might some commotion among the Night Elves now that Malfurion is coming back, I bet it will make Fandal have a fit. I think Blizz kinda forgot Vellen (is it with one L or two?) and his crew of squids (that I luv) same as the Blood elves not getting much after Burning Crusade.

[Aleu]

I'm just going to say that... Stagehelm can suck it. >.< I NEVER liked him. Tyrande kicks his sorry druid butt any day and he's a prick too. >C Malfurion is much better then him and I can't wait to see him.

Afterall it is called WARcraft.

I'm sorry. I always have to laugh at that. A lot of people assume the War in the Warcraft HAS to be between the Alliance and Horde. They never seem to acknowledge the other wars going on. (Against the Scourge, the Burning Legion, the Old Gods and soon against Deathwing.) Sure there are quarrels between the two, but so far I haven't seen any of the games completely focusing on a war between those two. =P As much as I'd like to see some peace...
I do like beating up some Allies in BGs and WG. >:3

[Sonata]

I'm just going to say that... Stagehelm can suck it. >.< I NEVER liked him. Tyrande kicks his sorry druid butt any day and he's a prick too.

Don't worry, he just might be the most hated character in all of Warcraft (even before Varian and Garrosh), for unknown reasons. I don't like him myself that much....maybe it's because he sended me on a woozy trip intro a crater FULL of evil dinosaurs to gather some...dirt and gave me NO thank you and orders me to get MORE?!
Even if Fandal is the kinda of person not to say thank you to anyone.

[Kayb]

I didn't say war only applies to the horde and alliance. its pretty damn obvious there are other wars going on in the story as well. My point was that there will never be a peace between the two primary factions

[Aleu]

Staghelm is a Night Elf supremacist. He thinks they're the only true druids and that Night Elves are the superior race on Azeroth, which is likely were most of the dislike came from. XP

[Kalliope]

*skim skim skim*

There's boatloads of corruption on both sides. The alliance races/factions just tend to sweep it more under the rug, whereas the horde are more open/blaze about it.

[Nikrosnil]

Ugh, ANOTHER Alliance Vs. Horde topic? Please, That's not even interesting anymore.

[Nikkikayama]

hmm this tells me you've never played the warcraft trilogy, haven't you?

King Varian says: Everytime I've killed a green skin, I've visioned a world without orcs. (during the battle of UC)

-hmm sounds like Hitler visioning a world without any other race but Germans.

Ltn Garritos from wc3. rdy to kill all the Blood elf race for communicating with Nagas. even though he treated the elves like crap when they were part of the alliance.

anyways, those are just some flaws in the Alliance that you've failed to look at. Can't blame everything on 1 side without looking at your own. Thrall and Cairne Bloodhoof are actually more civilized than you think. Even more than any Alliance leaders out there.

-Good day sir!

[fatman]

Ugh, ANOTHER Alliance Vs. Horde topic? Please, That's not even interesting anymore.

Actually, I prefer Alliance Cuisine vs Horde Cuisine. Westfall Stew? Has anybody ever eaten fish eyes? I still reel from the memory of the taste. Now Scorpid Surprise makes one wonder what scorpion tails taste like. Maybe spicy is an understatement.

[Anansi]

The only real difference I've seen is that the Horde tend to do something questionable and let everyone know about it and why they did it, while the Alliance tend to mask it and sweep things under the rug, then only admit to it if they have no way to get out of it.

Right, this is what I meant earlier when I said the Horde tend to have the courage of their convictions while the Alliance are two-faced and hypocritical. The Horde tend to be up-front about their actions, take pride in them (right or wrong) and admit their failings. The Alliance tend more towards deception and secrecy, and are very loathe to admit error.

Ugh, ANOTHER Alliance Vs. Horde topic? Please, That's not even interesting anymore.

Well considering the thread is 3 pages long with lots of in-depth discussion, I would wager that your assertion is not shared by a good many people here. It's fine you don't find it to your liking but I wonder why you felt the need to come into a multiple page thread to proclaim the topic isn't interesting anymore?

[Sarayana]

These comment that compare Varian Wrynn to Hitler are hugely problematic, in my opinion, and they convey a profound misunderstanding of both Wrynn and Hitler.

Varian Wrynn is on a personal vendetta against orcs. His life was torn apart when the orcs came through the dark portal, he could only watch as a half-orc (who was considered a loyal ally) killed his father, and after his escape from Alcaz Island he was enslaved and forced to fight as a gladiator by orcs. He is blinded by hatred for orcs, and unfortunately he has an army under his command.

I'm not going to go into Hitler's story, but his purpose was not to have "any other race but Germans". His purpose was to create a Utopia where only Aryans lived and procreated. That is not the act of a man overly loyal to his country - those are the thoughts of a mad man. He also killed millions of people. Millions. He designed elaborate death mechanisms and employed people to create even more psychopathic devices. I'm sorry to say that I can't properly convey the cruelty of this man.

Fact is, Blizzard would never make a faction leader who was modeled after a mass-murdering psychopath. They may make an evil character (yes, a truly evil character, not this "horde is evil" slander that gets tossed around) for us to kill... though I doubt it. But a faction leader, a character that a large part of the player base is supposed to look to, in one form or another, for leadership? No way.

[VelkynKarma]

Despite my dislike of Wrynn I'd actually agree with Sarayana on that one. I don't think Wrynn is intentionally trying to be evil; I just don't think he's being particularly smart about a PERSONAL dislike. And as she said, he rather unfortunately has an army at his disposal, unlike most people with personal issues.

I'm not justifying Wrynn for being a jerk (I still think he's a colossal a**hat who really shouldn't be a king if his buttons are so easily pushed), buuuut I wouldn't go as far as to say he's a Hitler wannabe there.

~VelkynKarma

[Anansi]

I don't think Wrynn is intentionally trying to be evil; I just don't think he's being particularly smart about a PERSONAL dislike. And as she said, he rather unfortunately has an army at his disposal, unlike most people with personal issues.

I'm not justifying Wrynn for being a jerk (I still think he's a colossal a**hat who really shouldn't be a king if his buttons are so easily pushed), buuuut I wouldn't go as far as to say he's a Hitler wannabe there.

Right, exactly. Wrynn is using his position as King and highest Alliance authority to support his personal agenda and feelings. In this, he is a very bad King, as no King should use his personal feelings as a foundation for ruling. He is extremely dangerous given that he can command the armies of the Alliance to do his bidding.

Garrosh is likewise a terrible choice for leader of the Horde as he and Varian are very much alike. Garrosh is another that will have command of the armies of the Horde to push his personal agenda.

Both figures are too emotionally stunted to possess the mantle of ultimate leadership, but both have in one way or another the support behind them to place them in that position. I'm not sure what the government structure of Stormwind and the Alliance is or what rights and support Varian has for being King so I can't comment on those details, but I can only assume he has either lineage rights or the political clout to be King.

Garrosh, for all his failings, has Thrall's compassion as Garrosh is a Hellscream, and Garrosh's father, Grommash, was Thrall's closest friend and advisor as well as chieftain of the Warsong clan. It was also Grom who first drank the blood of Mannoroth and thus caused the Orcs to become enslaved, vicious killer and invaders. But it was also Grom who redeemed his people by slaying Mannoroth and ending the enslavement. Thrall feels a great debt to the Hellscream name and hopes Garrosh will overcome the impetuousness of youth to become a great figure like his father. Thrall is nothing if not altruistic but as a Shaman he also likely believes that what fate has in store is what it is and cannot be fought.
Of course from an Alliance perspective, having another Hellscream leading the Horde is not going to sit well at all and will no doubt cause all sorts of old wounds to be re-opened.