Build 12479 - Random Hunter Talent Tree Screenshots

[Palladiamorsdeus]

I'm actually afraid for that, Kalli. As it stands, in this build, BM isn't being given anything to boost their pet's above anyone elses by all that much. 24% focus regen, and 15% attackspeed. After five stacks. MM get's Go for the Throat and Sic'em, and to harp on it, SV get's Hunter Vs Wild. So for the first, oh, 77 level's our pet's will be pretty much the same as everyone elses. We won't be learning BW until around the 50's.

In short, we'll basically be a gimped version of the other two trees, with unremarkable pet's for a very, very long time.

[Anansi]

Palladia - When I say KC is too expensive to use regularly, I'm going out on a limb and guessing a Marks and Survival Hunter will be using Chimera or Explosive, and Arcane. Adding in another 40 Focus cost ability is where it becomes too expensive. Sure there are times where we may push it and throw in a KC if we are absolutely sure we can afford the Focus and will not need any Distracting Shots, Tranq Shots etc or in PVP (hence RiF being clearly designed as a PVP talent), but it will certainly not be in the regular rotation. Plus, Marks and Survival Hunters will get buffs to their shots where KC will not (ie Improved Arcane which is being baked into Marks abilities). Aimed Shot will only be used as an opener if the tanks allow us to pull, and failing that only when Master Marksman builds 5 stacks thus proccing an instant cast and free Aimed Shot.

I've said it before and I will say it again, it really seems like a lot of BM Hunters want the best of both worlds in their classes, a high DPS pet alongside high DPS unique shots. The "signature" of the BM tree is stronger pets, exotic pets and more synergy with those pets and those pets being a huge source of damage. From the looks of things now, the DPS of all three trees is going to be the closest it's ever been but BM is much less flashy. Of course the Marks and Survival shots are going to hit for more damage than BM, our pets don't do near the damage BM pets attain. It's a trade-off, something people seem to forget.

I'm actually afraid for that, Kalli. As it stands, in this build, BM isn't being given anything to boost their pet's above anyone elses by all that much. 24% focus regen, and 15% attackspeed. After five stacks. MM get's Go for the Throat and Sic'em, and to harp on it, SV get's Hunter Vs Wild. So for the first, oh, 77 level's our pet's will be pretty much the same as everyone elses. We won't be learning BW until around the 50's.

In short, we'll basically be a gimped version of the other two trees, with unremarkable pet's for a very, very long time.

Except that what you are missing is that as you level, your chosen spec provides a number of spec-specific bonuses, most of which were previously talents. Blizzard have essentially removed the passive talents that everyone takes and turned them into core abilities, leaving talents as more dynamic and situation-based abilities. So as BM levels, you will get a lot of perqs that used to come from talents, so your pets will still be far ahead of Marks and Survival pets. Don't just look at the talent trees and that 10th level ability as the final say on what you will do as a Hunter. As for GftT and Sic 'Em, it's clearly intended that BM will spec into those. If you're putting all your talents in BM, that's fine, but you haven't the foundation upon which to then complain that your character is less than stellar. Hunter vs Wild has been a Survival talent for a long time now, so this is not new. It's also near the top of the tree so as BM you could arrange your talents to take HvW if you like.

[Palladiamorsdeus]

Except that I've been pointing out, repeatedly, that BM will not only have pet's that are not exactly superior to the other trees, but they won't have the tools that help the other two tree's deal damage. And no one is asking for a super powered shot! Just a shot for BM to call their own.

Also, I pointed out why you'd want to use KC before Arcane shot. Not the least of which is that it has the potential to do upwards of 40% more damage then arcane. This is all theoretically speaking, mind you, but as an MM I'd use the cheaper and more damaging KC before I'd use Arcane.

Also note that as of this build of the tree's, BM won't even be close to the other two until level 78. The talents buffing the BM hunters supposed primary source of damage is non-existant.

[Saturo]

The thing is, the spell that is supposed to be BMs signature is useful for the other specs as well. VERY useful. It needs to be nerfed, and then buffed for BM only, late enough so that the other specs won't be able to get it, and early enough for BM to have some use of it while levelling.

Right now, it's a spell that is useful for everyone, and not particularly so for BM.

[Tahlian]

Anansi, that's not necessarily what we want. What BM hunters want is not to be laughed out of raids or sidelined because of our spec. We don't want to be stuck underperforming simply because we're beast masters. I don't know what it is by the grace of the WoW gods at the moment that allows me to pull off what I do currently as well as I do. But I do know that flat math shows if I could tolerate a Marks spec, I'd do even more damage than I currently do. And I hate that. With a passion.

We want to be bloody competitive. We want to be able to go to raids or even hang out in Dalaran or Orgrimmar or wherever without getting "LOLBM" comments and whispers. We're sick and bloody tired of people assuming we get carried and can't pull our weight. That's what a lot of beast masters want. And I don't think we really care how Blizzard gets us there, so long as we get there.

[Palladiamorsdeus]

That's pretty much it. As beast masters, I am pretty sure we'd all like for our pet's to be buffed up to that point. But failing that, we'll take whatever we can get.

[Ryai]

BM is about the pets, not hunter epeenery. If you want big numbers from yourself, take a different spec. Otherwise, you have to split more damage with your pet. Hopefully with pets scaling 100% with the hunter's gear, they'll do even more damage.

Bull. Shit. I'm sorry but bull shit. If Blizz made us into a Tanking specc. Then fine. If Blizzard made us into an Off Tanking specc, then fine. If Blizzard made it where we could 1man Arthas, THEN FINE WHO CARES ABOUT DPS.

But we're a PURE DPS SPECC. And you're going to post, say it's not about epeen, and that if we want numbers, cry a river, build a bridge and get over it!? I'm sorry but what?

With Pets now scalling at 100% and our ONLY PET DEFINING ABILITY NOW +4 PET TALENTS that NEVER broke the game anyways for pets, we are JUST THE SAME AS MARKS AND SURV with the only difference of WE DONT GET JACK DIDDLY. TBW was nerfed because of PVP. If we still had the full 18 seconds for PVE we wouldn't be so bad off imo. Exotics are supposed to get a 3rd skill, but we know how that will go. Pets will maybe get +pet damage but we don't know that for sure, someone reported the masteries of old are MIA.

We get Kill Command yes BUT SO DONT OTHER SPECCS. And Blizzard's laughability of making 'Cobra Shot our Shot' by giving us buffs that also buffed Steady while allowing Cobra to be used by MM and SV is also LAUGHABLE.

And I'm sorry but your attitude is about the same attitude that Aria mentioned to me about Druids.

How if you wanted anyone to speak to you, don't bother trying to make your specc work. Don't bother trying to get Blizz to fix it. ROLL RESTO OR REROLL.

So what I'm supposed to accept this without critizism because 'lol BM iz about pet'.

FINE THEN WHERE ARE THE GOD DAMN +PET DAMAGE TALENTS.

I don't want a shot everyone can use!

I don't want Kill Command that again EVERYONE CAN STILL USE!

I can't use Black Arrow as BM! I can't use Explosive shot or Chimera, and not even aimed shot anymore once these go live!

Our only pet abilities are Beastial Wrath and Kill Command, and only ONE is exclusive! That's it! We get nothing that really boosts the pet anymore!

And this is about epeen!? I just want to be almost equal to SV and MM, not told to go blip myself in a corner over epeen! aurg.

*facedesk*.

Edit: And imp Rez Pet is gone, if anyone didn't notice.

Meaning BM is penalized if pet is deded in combat.

[Mania]

Fewer caps and exclamation marks, please. (Not aimed solely at you, Ryai.)

[Palladiamorsdeus]

"Except that what you are missing is that as you level, your chosen spec provides a number of spec-specific bonuses, most of which were previously talents. Blizzard have essentially removed the passive talents that everyone takes and turned them into core abilities, leaving talents as more dynamic and situation-based abilities. So as BM levels, you will get a lot of perqs that used to come from talents, so your pets will still be far ahead of Marks and Survival pets. Don't just look at the talent trees and that 10th level ability as the final say on what you will do as a Hunter. As for GftT and Sic 'Em, it's clearly intended that BM will spec into those. If you're putting all your talents in BM, that's fine, but you haven't the foundation upon which to then complain that your character is less than stellar. Hunter vs Wild has been a Survival talent for a long time now, so this is not new. It's also near the top of the tree so as BM you could arrange your talents to take HvW if you like."

Anansi, you don't get the mastery talent until the LATE SEVENTIES. That's why I said for a very, very long time. I didn't say it'd be that way forever. I ALSO explained why going down for sic'em, which is only a mediocre talent, would be a bad idea. And REALLY, Anansi? I KNOW HvW has always been there, but you had to sacrifice some pretty important stuff to get to it. Now it's RIGHT THERE, and with the addition of so much stamina, it'd be a bad idea to not go after it.

Also, sorry for caps. Tried to make up for that with a lack of exclamation points. Hope the trade off is okay!

[Kalliope]

Points well taken, Ryai. Mind you, I want to see BM putting out the same numbers as the other specs, but in its own way, with pets making up a larger chunk of the damage. A lot of the grumbling seemed to be about specific shots as a source of extra damage...for the hunter. BW and TBW seem to be enough uniqueness in Blizzard's eyes that BM doesn't need a shot. Survival got one, but survival never had something like BW in its backbone - it needed it more.

Since there hasn't been a pass over pets and their abilities/trees yet, I find it hard to believe that BM is done by any stretch of the imagination. So really, I would NOT worry yet. We don't know how many of the missing BM talents have gone directly into the pets.

[Palladiamorsdeus]

I am crossing my fingers, Kalli. This really is early on as far as this new talent tree build goes. I am sure it'll get better from here.

[Kalliope]

So looking at the BM tree again, Focus Fire and Fervor both look to up hunter AND pet output. They're not omgshiny abilities, but they seem practical.

I'd love to see Rhumba in action as well, since that's actually a pure hunter-buffing ability. It's probably the closest thing to a new shot BM's going to get. The hunter triggers it deliberately, but it takes "charging," since it's two steadies or cobras in a row.

[Shinryu Masaki]

I can understand that they wanetd to give us a clicky ability for level 10. The problem is that it doesn't scream Beast Master Hunter, like what the other two trees get for their level 10 package. Just like Ryai said, when you think about a BM hunter it's either a big red pet or a devilsaur (or any other exotic pets out there), and obviously they don't want us to have BW at the start. GC said they where putting some stuff at level 10 to make us feel like our spec right there instead of 30 or 40 levels down the road. But right now with the exotic pets even more out of reach I honestly do NOT feel like a BM hunter at all at level 10. I'll only feel like one a whole 60 levels down the road. That's just plain horrible. They just have to take the 4 pet talent points out of it and stick it to anything they can come up with as a new 31 pointer. It could be something to boost Cobra Shot like we where promised, or something else.

[Anansi]

Palladia - To quote Zarhym:

When players reach level 10, they are presented with basic information on the three specializations within their class and are asked to choose one. Then they spend their talent point. The other trees darken and are unavailable until 31 points are spent in the chosen tree. The character is awarded an active ability, and one or more passive bonuses unique to the tree they've chosen. As they gain levels, they'll alternate between receiving a talent point and gaining new skills. They'll have a 31-point tree to work down, with each talent being more integral and exciting than they have been in the past. Once they spend their 31'st point in the final talent (at level 70), the other trees open up and become available to allocate points into from then on. As characters move into the level 78+ areas in Cataclysm, they'll begin seeing items with a new stat, Mastery. Once they learn the Mastery skill from their class trainer they'll receive bonuses from the stat based on the tree they've specialized in.

You get abilities as you level. You get a talent, then a skill, then a talent, then a skill as you level. You do not wait until Mastery kicks in to get extras. Many of those skills are former talents, but the flat passives that everyone took, or a spell or whatever.

[Ryai]

Fewer caps and exclamation marks, please. (Not aimed solely at you, Ryai.)

liiiies all liiies

/safetyhat

So looking at the BM tree again, Focus Fire and Fervor both look to up hunter AND pet output. They're not omgshiny abilities, but they seem practical.

I'd love to see Rhumba in action as well, since that's actually a pure hunter-buffing ability. It's probably the closest thing to a new shot BM's going to get. The hunter triggers it deliberately, but it takes "charging," since it's two steadies or cobras in a row.

While Fervor is good, it's kinda just like a 'mana potion' or 'Arcane Torrent' tbh, and while it is nice, it still = only one extra shot for the hunter, idk about pets as weve' not seen what their skills use for focus amounts. And remember Focus Fire takes away from the pet- meaning we have to let the pet score crit hits, micromanage that then use fervor which steals the haste from pet and adds it to us. In the end this might be a dps increase for us, but it's not spectacular.

We don't have enough pet boosting abilities/pet dependant abilities, nor do we have exclusive attacks, outside of Fervor/Focus Fire tbh, ontop of that [I know about TBW/BW but mean any other boosting/exclusives mostly]

I mean we don't even get +dodge, we don't get +haste, other talents/speccs get that atleast half the time. And Demo has a glyph to increase the time spent in Meta, right?

Well now they have a talent that can, when it procs Decrease the cooldown for Meta.

Oh and they also have a talent that is like BM longevity too.

I'm just nerd raging over here. In my corner.

[Kalliope]

Don't even start with how bs warlocks are, cause they totally are. xD

[Rhyela]

I didn't quite read all of this, and I apologize, it's late. I'm worried about the Survival tree's third tier. Every single talent is PvP-based. Lock and Load is now solely activated by frost/freeze traps and freezing arrow, not Black Arrow anymore. Point of No Escape is all frost/freeze. Then there's Counterattack, and finally Survival Tactics. None of those are even remotely useful for raiding or instancing. I really don't want to be forced to take talents I don't want or use. I don't PvP with my hunter. I understand that they're kind of encouraging PvP hunters to use Survival, but for those of us that like raiding with it, we shouldn't be forced to take talents that are utterly useless. I'm hoping they fix that.

[Anansi]

I didn't quite read all of this, and I apologize, it's late. I'm worried about the Survival tree's third tier. Every single talent is PvP-based. Lock and Load is now solely activated by frost/freeze traps and freezing arrow, not Black Arrow anymore. Point of No Escape is all frost/freeze. Then there's Counterattack, and finally Survival Tactics. None of those are even remotely useful for raiding or instancing. I really don't want to be forced to take talents I don't want or use. I don't PvP with my hunter. I understand that they're kind of encouraging PvP hunters to use Survival, but for those of us that like raiding with it, we shouldn't be forced to take talents that are utterly useless. I'm hoping they fix that.

Marksmanship has a similar problem with being forced to take PvP talents, but there those talents are spread into two tiers and one of them is a pre-req for a solid PvE talent. So yes, I feel your pain with having to take utterly useless talents and sincerely hope Blizzard take another hard look at the Hunter trees. Never have we been forced to take PvP talents, we have always had the option with what to take. Oddly, their redesign to allegedly allow more choice has actually removed that choice completely. I don't know what's going on over there.

[Ryai]

I didn't quite read all of this, and I apologize, it's late. I'm worried about the Survival tree's third tier. Every single talent is PvP-based. Lock and Load is now solely activated by frost/freeze traps and freezing arrow, not Black Arrow anymore. Point of No Escape is all frost/freeze. Then there's Counterattack, and finally Survival Tactics. None of those are even remotely useful for raiding or instancing. I really don't want to be forced to take talents I don't want or use. I don't PvP with my hunter. I understand that they're kind of encouraging PvP hunters to use Survival, but for those of us that like raiding with it, we shouldn't be forced to take talents that are utterly useless. I'm hoping they fix that.

Marksmanship has a similar problem with being forced to take PvP talents, but there those talents are spread into two tiers and one of them is a pre-req for a solid PvE talent. So yes, I feel your pain with having to take utterly useless talents and sincerely hope Blizzard take another hard look at the Hunter trees. Never have we been forced to take PvP talents, we have always had the option with what to take. Oddly, their redesign to allegedly allow more choice has actually removed that choice completely. I don't know what's going on over there.

Oi- atleast SV and MM have PVP talents.

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?hunter#NDb4NOJ,,12479

We get 1 pvp ability outside of nerfed and broken TBW

ASPECT OF THE MONKEY.

But it makes no sense. None. Noooone.

[Saturo]

Oddly, their redesign to allegedly allow more choice has actually removed that choice completely. I don't know what's going on over there.

That's what happens when you remove so many talents and don't give us something else in return.

That was also my point back in the other thread, you can't just remove "boring" stuff and leave just the "fun" stuff. It obviously doesn't work. Look what we've got now. Two broken trees and an incredibly broken tree. That's the deal with far more than just Hunters.