WoW Becoming Unfriendly To Women?

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Re: WoW Becoming Unfriendly To Women?

Unread post by Mania »

Do you mean chauvinism? I don't think that's the male version of feminism, although in some sense it is the opposite of feminism.

Huh -- according to Wikipedia:
Chauvinism, in its original and primary meaning, is an exaggerated, bellicose patriotism and a blind belief in national superiority and glory.

By extension it has come to include an extreme and unreasoning partisanship on behalf of any group to which one belongs, especially when the partisanship includes malice and hatred towards rival groups.

A contemporary use of the term in English is in the phrase male chauvinism. Because "chauvinism" is most often heard in this context, it is often mistakenly believed to refer exclusively to "male chauvinism" such as anti-feminism and sexism.
I didn't realize that.
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Re: WoW Becoming Unfriendly To Women?

Unread post by Sonata »

Yes that's it! It's just written differently in finnish.

But this is more along the lines of people thinking which sex is better.

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Re: WoW Becoming Unfriendly To Women?

Unread post by Mindsprocket »

Sonata wrote:Yes that's it! It's just written differently in finnish.

But this is more along the lines of people thinking which sex is better.
Correct. There's definitely female chauvinism, too. But sadly it often gets mistaken for feminism and then ends up giving feminism a bad name because people believe it's all about being anti-men.

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Re: WoW Becoming Unfriendly To Women?

Unread post by Mania »

Mindsprocket wrote:Correct. There's definitely female chauvinism, too. But sadly it often gets mistaken for feminism and then ends up giving feminism a bad name because people believe it's all about being anti-men.
*sad nod*

It took me a while to figure out why some people - including my husband - are so virulently anti-feminist. Eventually I realized that they are unhappy with Feminists - with a capital F, as an organized movement that isn't always careful about things like including men, women of color, and disabled women.
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Re: WoW Becoming Unfriendly To Women?

Unread post by Epicfail »

Mania wrote:
Mindsprocket wrote:Correct. There's definitely female chauvinism, too. But sadly it often gets mistaken for feminism and then ends up giving feminism a bad name because people believe it's all about being anti-men.
*sad nod*

It took me a while to figure out why some people - including my husband - are so virulently anti-feminist. Eventually I realized that they are unhappy with Feminists - with a capital F, as an organized movement that isn't always careful about things like including men, women of color, and disabled women.
I think the point of it is, they seek to promote themselves because they feel entitled to something more that they believe others receive freely. The problem is, the civil rights movement/women's rights movements were a little TOO good at relating the inequality of the situation. The drive behind their support hinges upon people's consistantly renewed belief that they are owed more, so people promoted by those groups end up with an ever-expanding list of needs to be fulfilled in order to be equal.

If you have ever felt an inequality against you in this life for whatever reason, have you asked yourself what it would take for you to truly be satisfied with your equality? Notice I didn't ask what would it take to make you equal, but rather what would it take for you to FEEL equal. Two different things. Would it take 50 years of a matriarchal american society? 100? Would it take 5 consistant black presidents for black people to realize they have as good a shot at the whitehouse as any white man? Would it take us becoming a socialist or communist goverment for a while, where every man, woman and child are provided for, protected by and dominated by equally? When can we, in a free society, truly believe that regardless of who you are or where you come from, you are an important and valued person?

Maybe the truth actually lies in the discarded reminants of our past? When women weren't considered "voters" or even citizens, were they actually valued as less important? Did the complete lack of "freedom" as we know it really damage women for the several thousand years of complete and total domination by the male population? Are women "fixed" now that they have complete freedom/autonomy? Are we better off as a society with every man, woman and child specing for DPS because they deserve the freedom to do so, when very few people learn how to tank and heal? Or have we been sold the inequality/unfairness business for so long we accept that each of us is entitled to more regardless of what we have invested into our lives? This is a day and age where men cannot be men and women cannot be women, because being a man is too offensive and being a woman is too submissive.

TL;DR (by popular request): Everyone is unequal. Tanks and healers are desperately needed in this world ruled by the DPS meter. Its wrong to believe priests should do EXACTLY as much damage as a warlock and that every weapon should be a hunter weapon. My name is Epicfail and I'm running for president!!!!

VOTE EPICFAIL FOR PRESIDENT 2012!!!!!
...wait... that could be bad...
I don't really feel like this is so much the "Post-Modern" era as much as its the "Pre-Zombie-Apocalpse" era. I consider myself more of a forward thinking guy and an era that just won't die is just as feasible as a coming era, where the dead come back.
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Re: WoW Becoming Unfriendly To Women?

Unread post by Renle »

*raise eyebrow* I'm not interested in chivalry. I'm interested in equality. And unlike children, who arguably should be protected, Blizzard doesn't get to make that decision for me.
I Dunno. I always saw the 'children not able to be attacked thing' in wow not as that children should be protected, but to stop players from enjoying being able to attack children. Do you know what I mean?

I'm kind of equating this in my mind to certain people in society that get a sick pleasure out of hurting things. It starts with hurting animals and in some cases moves on to hurting people.
Some of these people also enjoy torturing/killing virtual people and animals.

I want to be VERY clear that I'm not saying all people that enjoy killing things in a video game enjoy the same thing IRL.
What I'm simply saying is that many serial killers started off small by torturing, and mutilating animals and moved on to people.

So by applying this to the female npc thought trail I was wandering aimlessly along, it's not blizzards way of 'protecting' women so much as not putting enough npc's in the game for some people to vent some sick fantasy on maybe?
Don't get me wrong, this is just me brain storming, and the real reason there aren't so many female npc's in game is probably closer to the fact that Blizzard is lazy lol.

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Re: WoW Becoming Unfriendly To Women?

Unread post by Epicfail »

Renle wrote:
*raise eyebrow* I'm not interested in chivalry. I'm interested in equality. And unlike children, who arguably should be protected, Blizzard doesn't get to make that decision for me.
I Dunno. I always saw the 'children not able to be attacked thing' in wow not as that children should be protected, but to stop players from enjoying being able to attack children. Do you know what I mean?

I'm kind of equating this in my mind to certain people in society that get a sick pleasure out of hurting things. It starts with hurting animals and in some cases moves on to hurting people.
Some of these people also enjoy torturing/killing virtual people and animals.

I want to be VERY clear that I'm not saying all people that enjoy killing things in a video game enjoy the same thing IRL.
What I'm simply saying is that many serial killers started off small by torturing, and mutilating animals and moved on to people.

So by applying this to the female npc thought trail I was wandering aimlessly along, it's not blizzards way of 'protecting' women so much as not putting enough npc's in the game for some people to vent some sick fantasy on maybe?
Don't get me wrong, this is just me brain storming, and the real reason there aren't so many female npc's in game is probably closer to the fact that Blizzard is lazy lol.
Actually, I was always taught that women used to not be allowed in war/combat because it follows the same idea as an all-boys school. Everyone looks the same. Similar backgrounds. Everyone focuses on the reason you're there. Add girls and not only does the mind wander and get distracted (whoops, check your bearing, she's a lietenant :P), but men are more apt to put themselves in front of a woman in battle to take the hit. You don't want all the drama and mess that comes from adding together men and women in an already horrific nightmarish situation. You want level headed soldiers that can make logical decisions based very rationally on the best intel possible. When men had no choice but to BE "men" or be chastized, it was a very different army. Nowadays, /shrug. I think there are still some restrictions, like no women allowed on subs, but that might be because of how tragically cramped living quarters are and there's no ladies room.

I think Blizz was just following the same understanding as the military has traditionally had. Then with the "new army" philosophy, fit women in key support roles (or leadership roles) as their lore/storyline allowed.

And to hit on Mania's point about feminism, I'm totally pro-women, but there are serious voids in our family structures nowadays. My wife isn't a healer, she's dps. I basically had to reroll myself as a paladin so I could tank and heal, because she's been hardwired to get things done, not tank heavy blows from the world and not heal/rest properly between them. Before me, she tried to do it all and got seriously damaged from it. Now that I"m in the picture things are fine until she pulls agro and tries to evasion tank. Oh, and guess whose fault it is when she gets hurt. Yep. Women have been told they can have everything they want in life, but they were never told how... just how to fake it for the benefit of convenience and social commentary. (btw, I mention my wife alot, but don't get the wrong idea. I'll love her till death. She's awesome, just a handful)

My opinion? If you're a woman, be a woman. If you're a man, be a man. You were born with specific gifts. Use them. Women and men were built differently to come together and fill out each others needs. Quit trying to fulfill all of your needs yourself on your own terms. Age 20-30 isn't playtime. That was age 10-20. Young adults need to start families when they have the energy and ability to do so, not mess around till their ideas of the opposite sex are completely marred by failed relationships, one night stands and repeatedly broken hearts. The reason most people don't do the above is because we are consistantly caught up in a series of distractions spanning the entire course of our lives and put more stock in "fun" and "freedom of choice" over that of a well lived and happy existence. The american quality of life has been in steady decline for a long time, but with enough distractions, we don't have to realize it enough for it to bring us down :P.

I struggle with it too. A friend once told me all of our fun distractions in life were really just drugs in a medicine cabinet. WoW is just one of the many bottles in my medicine cabinet, alongside movies, music and fellowship (hanging with friends). Without these things in my life, I have to face the drag that is our modern reality minus the painkillers. The only real satisfaction I've found is in God, taking care of my family and being in service to others. Ymmv, but through those I feel my life consistantly rejuvenated in ways that none of my fun drugs can do. You all probably see things a bit differently and that's fine. Don't let me disturb the pill popping session. Personally I go for the chewables now... takes me back to my flintstones kids days....

TL;DR - I digress very easily... oh and women are super awesome, but your WoW is my drug...
I don't really feel like this is so much the "Post-Modern" era as much as its the "Pre-Zombie-Apocalpse" era. I consider myself more of a forward thinking guy and an era that just won't die is just as feasible as a coming era, where the dead come back.
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Re: WoW Becoming Unfriendly To Women?

Unread post by Ryno »

Teigan wrote:My dwarf needs a bra...
Seconded. I mean REALLY. I think they were just playing with the physics engine that day, tbh.

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Re: WoW Becoming Unfriendly To Women?

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Ryno, I love your sig xD

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Re: WoW Becoming Unfriendly To Women?

Unread post by Saturo »

Ryno wrote:
Teigan wrote:My dwarf needs a bra...
Seconded. I mean REALLY. I think they were just playing with the physics engine that day, tbh.
WoW doesn't have a physics engine in that way. :D

It's all animations. There isn't even ragdoll physics...

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Re: WoW Becoming Unfriendly To Women?

Unread post by Mania »

Epicfail, I'm going to have to come back to your post (all of your posts on this thread) because your insidious assumptions require more precise and level-headed analysis than I have time for now. (Especially given the novel I am about to post here ...) I apologize for that, but I wanted to let you know that I am not ignoring you.

...

Also, I never did answer the question about the goblin starter zone. There are a lot of things that bother me about Kezan - mostly that your character is framed as a stereotyped goblin, stupid, incompetent, and greedy, regardless of what plans you may have for your character.

But way back in this thread, I was really talking about the early Kezan quests (and some later as well) that involve either a male or female NPC (Chip Endale or Candy Cane, respectively) as your character's romantic/sexual partner. Which NPC you get is based entirely on the gender of your goblin - so no homosexual or asexual goblins for you!

Both NPCs are over-the-top caricatures of a gold digger stereotype, but the specifics of the stereotype differ based on their gender. Think gum-chewing Jersey girl on the arm of a mobster vs. slick macho Guido eager to 'please' his sugar momma. (And I apologize profusely for invoking those stereotypes so readily. I'm feeling a bit ill with myself right now. But I'm not sure how else to summarize what I'm seeing in these quests without typing out all the damned text.)

Now a lot of the text seems to line up word for word to mean the same thing but it has subtly different connotations that make me uneasy.

For example, one of Candy's random text bits is: "I missed you so much! Where have you been? Are you going to answer me or just stand there?" The similar text bit from Chip Endale: "Sweetie, where have you been? You know how worried I get when you don't check in with me!"

Within the context of the stereotypes that the NPCs embody, Candy's text reads as: "I am shrill and demanding but you don't actually have to tell me anything because I have no real power in our relationship. In fact, that is part my value to you - to show others that you you have the wealth to support a high-maintenance girl and the power to ignore me completely."

Chip's text, on the other hand, reads as: "I am over-protective and controlling. In fact, I am willing to manipulate your emotions to control your behavior. But that is part of my value to you - by emphasizing my masculinity, I let you emphasize your own femininity ... which you need to do because you make more money than I do."

I know that many of you will disagree with my readings. And one example isn't enough for you to get your own personal read on this, I'm sure. I'll see if I can find more of the text somewhere. Regardless, allow me to say that 1) this is how I read this text and 2) I'm not the only one.

Another small example: Each NPC has one piece of text for characters of the same gender. So Candy says to female goblins: "Yeah? Whatdya want?" while Chip says to male goblins: "Beat it, pal, before I give you the ol' Chip Endale fist to the face."

Candy is dismissive of other female goblins. They aren't important to her. Her attention is focused on the male goblin character because he is what is important. Chip, on the other hand, is actively hostile towards other male goblins. His masculinity is the important thing here, not his relationship to the female goblin character. And given his highly visibly hyper-sexualized role, he has to actively defend his masculinity against other males or he runs the risk of being taken for one of those soft, vain, submissive homosexuals.

So I am bothered by the obvious gender-based stereotypes expressed in these characters. Worse, though, is what it seems to say about my character: the fact that my character has apparently (and without my input) chosen to be in a relationship with one of these NPCs.

Let me tell you, my female goblin would toss Chip out on his ear the very first time he tried to guilt-trip her into telling him where she'd been. And I'm not even going to tell you her reaction when she found out what he'd been threatened other male goblins. Unfortunately, I don't have any choice about how my character reacts to Candy and Chip.

There are plenty of other quests in WoW that remove my ability to make choices for my character. But none of them are both as required as the quests given by these NPCs - you won't get to level 5 without them - and deal with a subject as integral and personal as gender. The Borean Tundra torture quest that Richard Bartle posted about is just as or more sensitive than these gender-based NPCs, but skipping that quest locked you out of a quest line - it didn't stop your progression entirely.

In the end, though, what really gets me is that this gender-based text just doesn't add anything. These NPCs have some dialog and give you a quest, but the quests are identical - only the quest text and their dialog text changes. So I'm really not getting the point of having two of them.

Blizzard could have gotten the very same feel with a single 'mooching friend' stereotype NPC. (That would give you a bit more space to determine how your character reacts to the situation anyway, since your character might be enthusiastically friendly or just barely tolerate this 'friend'. A sexual/romantic relationship is a lot more intimate.)

The gender-based differences just don't add anything. Except more content for Blizzard to create and test. So why did they bother?

...

Maybe next time we can talk about the fun diseased hussy quests in Vashj'ir!

(*spit*)
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Re: WoW Becoming Unfriendly To Women?

Unread post by Ryno »

Saturo wrote:
Ryno wrote:
Teigan wrote:My dwarf needs a bra...
Seconded. I mean REALLY. I think they were just playing with the physics engine that day, tbh.
WoW doesn't have a physics engine in that way. :D
Regardless, a bra would be nice, heh. It's just... completely ridiculous for actual combat. GG targeted audiences. GG.

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Re: WoW Becoming Unfriendly To Women?

Unread post by Saturo »

Ryno wrote:
Saturo wrote:
Ryno wrote:Seconded. I mean REALLY. I think they were just playing with the physics engine that day, tbh.
WoW doesn't have a physics engine in that way. :D
Regardless, a bra would be nice, heh. It's just... completely ridiculous for actual combat. GG targeted audiences. GG.
Targeted audiences...? For female dwarves...? :P

That sounds pretty damn awful, Mania. I may have second thoughts about my Goblin shaman now...

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Re: WoW Becoming Unfriendly To Women?

Unread post by cowmuflage »

By reading about the gobbo zone i happen to like it IMO it makes the starter zone stand out from the other ones :S IMO it fits in with the gobbos
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Re: WoW Becoming Unfriendly To Women?

Unread post by Saturo »

cowmuflage wrote:By reading about the gobbo zone i happen to like it IMO it makes the starter zone stand out from the other ones :S IMO it fits in with the gobbos
It roleplays the character for you. That ain't a good thing.

Also, it seems too much, really. So far, almost all seems to be an automated ride, or at least a large amount, and... Well... I don't like what I've seen so far tough.

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Re: WoW Becoming Unfriendly To Women?

Unread post by Kayb »

I wanna see female Gnoll models. Specifically so I can see Hogger's mother walk up to him while he's in combat against something, slap him upside the back of his head so he falls face first in the dirt then drag him by the leg back to his room for being such a bad boy.

Then she can come out and nuke all the players.

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Re: WoW Becoming Unfriendly To Women?

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Saturo wrote:That sounds pretty damn awful, Mania. I may have second thoughts about my Goblin shaman now...
It's not smack-you-in-the-face awful ... And I've held my nose and played through it about six times now. But it really does unsettle me in ways that I find hard to explain briefly -- as you saw. :)

I haven't played through Azshara as a goblin yet. I'm really curious how that feels, but I've been more focused on getting pet info so far.
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Re: WoW Becoming Unfriendly To Women?

Unread post by Ryno »

Saturo wrote:Targeted audiences...?
I was meaning, WoW is targeted mostly for teen males. Hence why some of the females look the way they do, dance the way they do, etc.

Not to say everything in the game is aimed towards that, but most things in it are.

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Re: WoW Becoming Unfriendly To Women?

Unread post by Saturo »

Mania wrote:
Saturo wrote:That sounds pretty damn awful, Mania. I may have second thoughts about my Goblin shaman now...
It's not smack-you-in-the-face awful ... And I've held my nose and played through it about six times now. But it really does unsettle me in ways that I find hard to explain briefly -- as you saw.
I'm just usually not a fan of the quests that roleplay for you. I mean, that hourglass of eternity quest was okay on my lock, because that's kind of how I RP her, very condescending, rude and evil (Gee... Sounds a lot like me now that I think about it.), but for most of my characters, it just seems off. I know for a fact Ovaktalo wouldn't act like that, just as Kinetik didn't. Deteriorate MIGHT, but her backstory kind of makes it very unlikely...
Ryno wrote:
Saturo wrote:Targeted audiences...?
I was meaning, WoW is targeted mostly for teen males. Hence why some of the females look the way they do, dance the way they do, etc.

Not to say everything in the game is aimed towards that, but most things in it are.
Ohyeah, absolutely. I mean female dwarves in particular.

The female gnome dance always creeps me out...

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Re: WoW Becoming Unfriendly To Women?

Unread post by cowmuflage »

Well Saturo for some one like me who does not like to roleplay i do not find it a bad thing :S I don't play wow to roleplay really
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