Cataclysm Release Date + Beta - Build 13117

[Kalliope]

The PTR doesn't mean much beyond classes not scaling at 80. That's level 80 balance, not 85. That's why I'm not going all out on testing there.

I'm pretty dubious of the latest beta changes because if numbers were being reported as being even (except for marks, but again, different issue), then there was no reason to nerf BM again. I don't expect this to remain that way, but I don't understand why these changes were done in the first place.

If someone wants to stop paying for their subscription, that's up to them. You're entitled to think they're jumping to conclusions, but hey, at the end of the day, if they're not satisfied, then no amount of convincing is going to dissuade them. It's their money. And at this point, with ACTUAL RELEASE DATES for patches and the expansion, concern about balance makes more sense than it did a few months ago. It's still a bit early to totally panic, but this seems like a step backwards at this point.

[Slickrock]

The problem that strikes me is that Ghostcrawler basically admitted that SV is 2k DPS ahead of the other specs, and said that as this build came out. Knowing that the devs still pushed out this patch?? I mean honestly, that blows my mind and makes me concerned that they really have no idea what they're doing lol

Exactly. SV 2k higher and they nerf BM some more? So it's 3-4 k behind SV now?

I will lol if SV becomes the must-be raid spec.

[Palladiamorsdeus]

You have to take that quote in context. In THEIR builds, which are several ahead of this one, SV is 2k ahead of BM and MM. Not in THIS build. We aren't on the same build as them.

[Kalliope]

What's so funny about surv being The Raid Spec? It was The Raid Spec through the early half of LK.

[Palladiamorsdeus]

Yeah, I was about to say, SV had a really early lead up on MM after 3.08 knocked the crap out of BM, and it wasn't until patches and tiers later that MM caught up, and then passed SV.

[Slickrock]

What's so funny about surv being The Raid Spec? It was The Raid Spec through the early half of LK.

The part about all three specs being viable...

[Kalliope]

What's so funny about surv being The Raid Spec? It was The Raid Spec through the early half of LK.

The part about all three specs being viable...

Min-maxers will always find the most optimal spec, no matter how viable the other specs are.

[Slickrock]

What's so funny about surv being The Raid Spec? It was The Raid Spec through the early half of LK.

The part about all three specs being viable...

Min-maxers will always find the most optimal spec, no matter how viable the other specs are.

Well, by the admission of GC himself, SV was 2k above the others BEFORE these nerfs. So it depends on what you call viable. But we've had those arguements before here, over what constitutes viable. If a spec gets kicked out of raids, then it's not viable.

Only thing that will save BM in 10-mans is the corehound.

[Palladiamorsdeus]

Min-maxers will always find the most optimal spec, no matter how viable the other specs are.[/quote]

Well, by the admission of GC himself, SV was 2k above the others BEFORE these nerfs. So it depends on what you call viable. But we've had those arguements before here, over what constitutes viable. If a spec gets kicked out of raids, then it's not viable.

Only thing that will save BM in 10-mans is the corehound.[/quote]

I am trying to explain that! It's not BEFORE these nerfs! It's on THEIR build, which is two builds up from ours! It's AFTER THIS NERF. They aren't on the same build we are. So in a build two builds in the future, the numbers are 2k apart.

BUT those numbers are still to far apart. That's not a 5% difference.

[Lisaara]

I am trying to explain that! It's not BEFORE these nerfs! It's on THEIR build, which is two builds up from ours! It's AFTER THIS NERF. They aren't on the same build we are. So in a build two builds in the future, the numbers are 2k apart.

BUT those numbers are still to far apart. That's not a 5% difference.

This...completely.

So please stop repeating the false information. the 2k is AFTER the nerfs, not before it.

[Nimizar]

Well, by the admission of GC himself, SV was 2k above the others BEFORE these nerfs.

a) GC said that in the context of why SV couldn't expect any damage buffs - it was already too high in their internal builds. He never said it was OK that it was 2k higher than the other specs, people just jumped to that conclusion. What he did say was that the three specs are now close enough in their internal builds that they want more level 85 player data from the beta before they fiddle too much (since players may surprise them with creative tactics, builds and gearing choices). That's a far cry from saying that a 2k DPS gap is acceptable (in fact, they've stated they would like the different specs to be within 1% or so of each other)
b) GC's comment is about relative damage levels after these BM nerfs not before them. He explicitly clarified that point.

It's important to remember that Blizzard's internal builds (especially the ones the class devs are playing with, since they're the ones making balance changes) are usually a few iterations ahead of whatever is on the beta and PTR servers. This guideline applies even when the public servers are in the process of being updated.

[Lisaara]

Well, by the admission of GC himself, SV was 2k above the others BEFORE these nerfs.

a) GC said that in the context of why SV couldn't expect any damage buffs - it was already too high in their internal builds. He never said it was OK that it was 2k higher than the other specs, people just jumped to that conclusion. What he did say was that the three specs are now close enough in their internal builds that they want more level 85 player data from the beta before they fiddle too much (since players may surprise them with creative tactics, builds and gearing choices). That's a far cry from saying that a 2k DPS gap is acceptable (in fact, they've stated they would like the different specs to be within 1% or so of each other)
b) GC's comment is about relative damage levels after these BM nerfs not before them. He explicitly clarified that point.

It's important to remember that Blizzard's internal builds (especially the ones the class devs are playing with, since they're the ones making balance changes) are usually a few iterations ahead of whatever is on the beta and PTR servers. This guideline applies even when the public servers are in the process of being updated.

Thank you for explaining all that. Hopefully the point is across now.

[Kalliope]

I am trying to explain that! It's not BEFORE these nerfs! It's on THEIR build, which is two builds up from ours! It's AFTER THIS NERF. They aren't on the same build we are.

It's important to remember that Blizzard's internal builds (especially the ones the class devs are playing with, since they're the ones making balance changes) are usually a few iterations ahead of whatever is on the beta and PTR servers. This guideline applies even when the public servers are in the process of being updated.

QFT.

[Tahlian]

I just don't know anymore. I'm tired. I'm tired of fighting like a tiger for the spec I love, for the pets I love, and being derided, mocked, and literally afraid to post to forums because of the spec I play. Do you realize that when my raid finally downed Arthas, this is the only place I said anything about it? Because this is the only place where someone wouldn't pop up saying "24 good people and a 30% buff can carry one idiot beast master who likes gimping his raid." The only way that treatment of a certain section of the hunter class is going to stop is if Blizzard does what they said they would. We were told they knew there was a problem and that Cataclysm would fix it. Yeah...fixed it real damn good, didn't they? I'm tired of Clayburn being a mark of shame instead of a badge of honor among my fellow hunters. I'm just...tired of it.


I'm trying to have faith that Blizzard will carry through so that all three specs will be equal enough that it doesn't matter which one you bring...but my faith is about drained on that front. I just don't know.

[Lisaara]

I just don't know anymore. I'm tired. I'm tired of fighting like a tiger for the spec I love, for the pets I love, and being derided, mocked, and literally afraid to post to forums because of the spec I play. Do you realize that when my raid finally downed Arthas, this is the only place I said anything about it? Because this is the only place where someone wouldn't pop up saying "24 good people and a 30% buff can carry one idiot beast master who likes gimping his raid." The only way that treatment of a certain section of the hunter class is going to stop is if Blizzard does what they said they would. We were told they knew there was a problem and that Cataclysm would fix it. Yeah...fixed it real damn good, didn't they? I'm tired of Clayburn being a mark of shame instead of a badge of honor among my fellow hunters. I'm just...tired of it.


I'm trying to have faith that Blizzard will carry through so that all three specs will be equal enough that it doesn't matter which one you bring...but my faith is about drained on that front. I just don't know.

A little wisdom....

Words only have power if you give them power. If you don't(aka tell them to fuck off), then they have no power over you.

[Palladiamorsdeus]

I just don't know anymore. I'm tired. I'm tired of fighting like a tiger for the spec I love, for the pets I love, and being derided, mocked, and literally afraid to post to forums because of the spec I play. Do you realize that when my raid finally downed Arthas, this is the only place I said anything about it? Because this is the only place where someone wouldn't pop up saying "24 good people and a 30% buff can carry one idiot beast master who likes gimping his raid." The only way that treatment of a certain section of the hunter class is going to stop is if Blizzard does what they said they would. We were told they knew there was a problem and that Cataclysm would fix it. Yeah...fixed it real damn good, didn't they? I'm tired of Clayburn being a mark of shame instead of a badge of honor among my fellow hunters. I'm just...tired of it.


I'm trying to have faith that Blizzard will carry through so that all three specs will be equal enough that it doesn't matter which one you bring...but my faith is about drained on that front. I just don't know.

I kind of have to agree with this. I feel like I shouldn't HAVE to be 25% better then the MM or SV specced hunters around just to get a spot, and just to be told to reroll. I don't like the fact that if an MM or SV is as GOOD as me, then I won't get a spot, period.

I am not asking for BM to be the top damage dealing spec. Just...competitive. I do not want to see a return to 3.08 time.

[Slickrock]

It's important to remember that Blizzard's internal builds (especially the ones the class devs are playing with, since they're the ones making balance changes) are usually a few iterations ahead of whatever is on the beta and PTR servers. This guideline applies even when the public servers are in the process of being updated.

This is also why we really don't know what the numbers are, and why GC rarely answers questions relating to numbers. And it's also why when he does talk about them, they get taken out of context, because we aren't given a context.

Still. From his comment, it may well be that SV is going to get to run free for a while.

[Slickrock]

I just don't know anymore. I'm tired. I'm tired of fighting like a tiger for the spec I love, for the pets I love, and being derided, mocked, and literally afraid to post to forums because of the spec I play. Do you realize that when my raid finally downed Arthas, this is the only place I said anything about it? Because this is the only place where someone wouldn't pop up saying "24 good people and a 30% buff can carry one idiot beast master who likes gimping his raid." The only way that treatment of a certain section of the hunter class is going to stop is if Blizzard does what they said they would. We were told they knew there was a problem and that Cataclysm would fix it. Yeah...fixed it real damn good, didn't they? I'm tired of Clayburn being a mark of shame instead of a badge of honor among my fellow hunters. I'm just...tired of it.


I'm trying to have faith that Blizzard will carry through so that all three specs will be equal enough that it doesn't matter which one you bring...but my faith is about drained on that front. I just don't know.

I kind of have to agree with this. I feel like I shouldn't HAVE to be 25% better then the MM or SV specced hunters around just to get a spot, and just to be told to reroll. I don't like the fact that if an MM or SV is as GOOD as me, then I won't get a spot, period.

I am not asking for BM to be the top damage dealing spec. Just...competitive. I do not want to see a return to 3.08 time.

Yep. Enough said.

[Deathadder]

I just don't know anymore. I'm tired. I'm tired of fighting like a tiger for the spec I love, for the pets I love, and being derided, mocked, and literally afraid to post to forums because of the spec I play. Do you realize that when my raid finally downed Arthas, this is the only place I said anything about it? Because this is the only place where someone wouldn't pop up saying "24 good people and a 30% buff can carry one idiot beast master who likes gimping his raid." The only way that treatment of a certain section of the hunter class is going to stop is if Blizzard does what they said they would. We were told they knew there was a problem and that Cataclysm would fix it. Yeah...fixed it real damn good, didn't they? I'm tired of Clayburn being a mark of shame instead of a badge of honor among my fellow hunters. I'm just...tired of it.


I'm trying to have faith that Blizzard will carry through so that all three specs will be equal enough that it doesn't matter which one you bring...but my faith is about drained on that front. I just don't know.

I feel your pain. I used to get a ton of flack from other people for raiding BM. But my guild didn't have a problem with it and treats Chomper, my devilsaur, as a member of the raid and not just some hunter pet. Stayed BM through all of Ulduar and its hard mode fights, ToC and ToGC (sadly never did kill Anub in GC) and didn't switch to MM till mid ICC, which was a sad day. I can proudly say I've killed 11/12 Heroic ICC 25 as a BM hunter and I enjoyed every second of it.

Try not to listen to people that just want to tear you down. Have fun stomping around with your devilsaur. I know mine will be by my side come Cata.

[Saturo]

Funny thing is that you also mock Saturo for thinking about quitting her hunter because she doesn't like the state of MM. Go figure.

And I think Saturo was just joking about that.....(I could be wrong though!).

I wasn't joking. The way MM is balanced, and the overall playstyle, is not to my liking. They could have chosen to go a way with more stable focus regen trough talents for MM, but instead they just copied SV and made MM have a really messed up "rotation". ATM, it looks like BM might be the most like old MM, and I'm not a fan of that.

Personally, I think there is too much whining in this thread. Blizz are working at bringing the specs back to a balance. It might not go as quickly as we wish, but it's happening. Also, they are working ahead. Why, I'll bet, the next patch will push BM up a bit higher, and slam MM and SV down again. It's how they work. It's not particularly easy to balance things. They have eight classes to balance, and each class has three specs. Let's do that math:
3*8=24
Now, not all those are DPS specs, so for the purpose of this discussion, let's ignore those. That allows us to subtract healing specs and tanking specs:
Resto Druids, Resto Shammies, Prot Pally, Holy Pally, Prot Warrior, Holy Priest, Disc Priest.

That's seven specs to subtract.
24-7=17

So seventeen specs, that all need to be in balance. Then we have tanks, who need to be somewhat in balance with the DPS specs to ensure a viable setting. That's an additional four specs that more or less tie in with DPS specs. And then we haven't even started on internal balancing between tanks and healers. EVERYTHING needs to be in balance. Blizz have a tough job ahead of themselves. If we get all the specs within five percent we should consider ourselves happy.