War of the Thorns annoyances

[Valnaaros]

I agree with most of your post. However, even though it was Sylvanas ordering for Teldrassil to be burned, the Horde PC are guilty with aiding and abetting. This continues in the Siege and later in BfA where Sylvanas either does something terrible and the PC doesn't speak up or do anything, or they follow her orders and do something horrible.

That is why many Horde players are mad. They don't get a choice in any of this. Classes that should take issue with what is happening like Druids, Shaman, Paladins, and Priests are just going along with it. In regards to lore characters, the only one whom has spoken out is Saurfang. The rest of the Horde seemingly go along with it.

Yesterday evening, Terron Gregory made a post on Twitter in response to the backlash. In it he told everyone to "wait and see". This has been told to us already a number of times, and as you can guess the playerbase isn't too happy with it.

[Sukurachi]

I tried doing a couple of world quests today on my Troll shaman, and I was just so queasy while trying to do quests in Val'sharah that I had to log out.

[Krysteena]

Part of me wonders if the lack of a reaction is because Blizzard doesn't have the time to get every reaction from the appropriate classes and races, although I think it would be cool to have our PCs actually react to things in-game as opposed to just going along with it. The fact that I'm playing through and doing the quests shouldn't reflect on my PC, who isn't being given a choice to actually do anything other than either go along with it or not play the game, though.

Reducing PCs to mindless soldiers is a problem, and that I don't agree with, either. Let's just keep fingers crossed that this 'wait and see' moment is actually worth the wait. Blizzard do have some explaining to do with what they've done.

[Teigan]

Reducing PCs to mindless soldiers is a problem, and that I don't agree with, either. Let's just keep fingers crossed that this 'wait and see' moment is actually worth the wait. Blizzard do have some explaining to do with what they've done.

Especially after setting us up as commanders of our orders, where we apparently led them, which implies free agency (though of course the player doesn't experience that). If we were with it enough to lead the war against the Legion, then presumably, we were mentally competent enough to decide to go along with Sylvanas' plans, from a story perspective. So, this does implicitly fall on the players in a way it wouldn't if we were cast as mere brute mercenaries and itinerant adventurers.

[Qraljar]

Let's just keep fingers crossed that this 'wait and see' moment is actually worth the wait.

Call me cynical, but I'm quite sure it won't be worth the wait.
They said "wait and see" when it comes to Teldrassil. Plenty of players said it was going to be Sylvanas, but Blizzard said "wait and see it might be more nuanced than you think!"

And it wasn't. It was exactly what players expected.

[Valnaaros]

Precisely, Qraljar. They've burned people with that and, if anything, shown that their words can't be trusted.

[Wain]

Maybe the Azshara cinematic will reveal it was all a dream, induced by the Old Gods! Hey, it's a perfectly respectable trope. The Alliance and Horde have been hallucinating ever since AQ. The bit where we had alternate time lines on alien worlds was when the dream got extra trippy. Sargeras sticking his sword into Azeroth was the Freudian aspects of our subconscious manifesting. Now we're fully in the throes of nightmare. Next patch we'll all be naked and can't quite remember where we left our armour.

[Valnaaros]

@Wain

Here is an interesting post on Reddit.

[Lupis]

See the whole "wait and see" thing with the new warchief, too. EVERYONE called it (correctly) as Vol'jin, and within days of his being named warchief, everyone also went "but it'll actually end up being Sylvanas". Correct both times, and Blizzard still kept up the "No no it's not what you expect" gig.

It's usually what we expect.

I have a feeling that we're going to see will take one of two forms: option 1, Old God Azeroth. It's fairly public knowledge that Azeroth is the name of a diety in the Cthulhu Mythos, and Azerite is the lifeblood of the planet- I'm wondering if it'll have a darker twist. Azeroth, the diety, trying to promote war and wipe out both Horde and Alliance by offering forth this cataclysmicly destructive blood. Potentially, discovering that would draw the war to a close, as it would be revealed that both factions had been played and there would be no winner, only destruction.

Option 2, MAD- the factions get so power hungry with Azerite that the planet simply starts to die. With their home at risk, they might be forced to set aside the war to save the only home they have- or, alternatively, the planet would try to save itself, and the factions would need to suddenly work together to survive the planet's retaliatoin.

I'm hoping we see Sylvanas grow, but I'm not optimistic she will. Maybe, though- it would be very compelling writing to see her grow past this EXCEDINGLY EVIL phase. Again, not optimistic. But it'd be very neat!

As for that reddit post, I can see where they're coming from, doesn't mean I like it. Makes story sense in some ways, but it's garbage for those playing Horde. Horde players already get a lot of shit and honor alone wouldn't drive the Horde to follow this- we've seen as much with Eitrigg and Saurfang, big honorable orcs who defied Garrosh. "Honor" isn't iron law in the Horde- many of whom already distrust the Forsaken anyway, and some of whom (the Forsaken, Blood Elves and Goblins especially) don't follow the same honor rules. Yeah, I can see that working for some Horde folks, but only some. Especially the player characters- they've worked alongside the Alliance a million times, as well as various neutral factions made up of multiple races. The concept that every hero would be cool with this is ludicrous.

[Valnaaros]

Azerite, actually, is not destructive by itself. Normally it heals and rejuvenates. It only becomes volatile when it is tainted or used with something else like blackpowder. However, I think that some of the Azerite we're using is mixed with Old God blood. Perhaps C'thun's.

[cowmuflage]

Makes sense seeing as the first time we found it was in Sithilus and as the saying goes "nothing good ever comes out of Sithilus"

[GormanGhaste]

Maybe the Azshara cinematic will reveal it was all a dream, induced by the Old Gods!

We wake up and find Vol'jin in the shower.

[Wain]

Here is an interesting post on Reddit.

That Reddit pretty much covered how I feel about it too. For me, Sylvanas has done nothing inconsistent with how her character has been portrayed for many expansions. There are no bad character twists as far as I can see, and it would have been bad writing for her to suddenly change. What characters on the Horde side are forced to partake in is another matter, and I believe that's what they will really need to address in BfA to satisfy me. Nobody gets a good gaming experience out of being forced so far from the moral character they imagine for their toon.

[Setanta]

The only real annoyance is that the Horde side of the story had an abrupt ending on the beach.

[Sukurachi]

The issue isn't that Sylvanas is evil.
The issue is that the entire Horde is obliged to go along with it, willingly, as though we agree.
The Horde player-base is not unanimously into being "evil".
If Sylvanas was evil from x-number of years ago, so be it. But then to have her as our leader, with nary a question about that, with all seemingly in agreement with her actions except for one lone orc...
Therein lies the problem.

[Valnaaros]

That is the big problem, and that is what the majority of the discussion is on various lore forums. "Why should I defend Undercity?" "Why would my Paladin allow Sylvanas to burn Teldrassil?" "Why is there only one Horde hero that is against Sylvanas?"

[Setanta]

The issue isn't that Sylvanas is evil.
The issue is that the entire Horde is obliged to go along with it, willingly, as though we agree.
The Horde player-base is not unanimously into being "evil".
If Sylvanas was evil from x-number of years ago, so be it. But then to have her as our leader, with nary a question about that, with all seemingly in agreement with her actions except for one lone orc...
Therein lies the problem.

There is a fair bit that is missed between how Legion ends and the War of the Thorns that can get missed without reading Before the Storm. The story at it's core was the meeting in Arathi, but there were other subtle signs for things as well. Baine and the Tauren are not participating in this process because of absolute desire, but rather quite reluctantly. Gallywix only exists because he is marginally useful, otherwise Sylvanas likely would have killed him awhile ago, and I think it is safe to say that nobody would miss him.

[Thwip]

The issue isn't that Sylvanas is evil.
The issue is that the entire Horde is obliged to go along with it, willingly, as though we agree.
The Horde player-base is not unanimously into being "evil".
If Sylvanas was evil from x-number of years ago, so be it. But then to have her as our leader, with nary a question about that, with all seemingly in agreement with her actions except for one lone orc...
Therein lies the problem.

There is a fair bit that is missed between how Legion ends and the War of the Thorns that can get missed without reading Before the Storm. The story at it's core was the meeting in Arathi, but there were other subtle signs for things as well. Baine and the Tauren are not participating in this process because of absolute desire, but rather quite reluctantly. Gallywix only exists because he is marginally useful, otherwise Sylvanas likely would have killed him awhile ago, and I think it is safe to say that nobody would miss him.

My only complaint with this is that there ARE Tauren NPCs out in Darkshore that we can see helping with this endeavor. Kodo Beast Riders, for example. So in game, this doesn't help make it very clear that Baine is against this. I know a leader cannot control ALL of his people, but that makes it also seem like the Tauren are fine with what is going on. Same with any other type of NPC out there.

I can see Lor'themar going along with TAKING the tree as it's a strategic advantage, but I know he's going to be super unhappy with what went down. He was one of the few very outspoken characters against Garrosh at the time and the actions he took as Warchief.

It's also very frustrating how much narrative elements we miss by skipping the books. They're very bad with presenting lore in books and not bringing it to the forefront in any way in the game. They've done this a lot before and it's always bit them in the ass when it comes to major events. These are things people NEED to know without having to spend extra cash getting a book on the side. We miss a LOT this way. We're not getting enough info in game, which causes a totally different experience from someone who's read the books and then played the events in game and someone who has not read the books then played the event.

[cowmuflage]

It's always a bad idea to have important lore events in other media that's not the main media. If it's important to the story of the game it should be in the game.

[Valnaaros]

And in regards to the Tauren, during the Battle for Undercity, there are Tauren that are Sludge Guards -- the individuals responsible for spreading the Blight. Of all races on the Horde that should be against the Blight, it should be the Tauren.