Build 12479 - Random Hunter Talent Tree Screenshots

[Palladiamorsdeus]

And the problem with saying "This is just the first pass!" is that so far, this is the first pass on what is shaping up to be a very bad idea. It doesn't matter how much you shine up dirt, it's still just dirt. Believe me, I am seriously hoping they fix this, but it's a wait and see type deal.

Edit: Also: "Our designers are working through the UI layout and many of the talents right now, figuring out what specialization-defining abilities should be given at level 10, what and where specific talents should be placed, as well as how to balance gaining new talents versus gaining new spells/abilities while leveling. We want to make sure each level still feels very rewarding, even though you're not getting a talent point every time."

There is nothing in there about us getting the old passive's as we level. Nothing. We get a talent point on one level, and a spell or ability on the next. The only class defining things we get outside of our talent tree's, we get at level ten. That's it. If it's gone from the tree's, then it's gone for good. Maybe they'll change that, maybe they won't. I'm not holding my breath right now, even if I am trying to hold out hope.

[Jedi8187]

If it's gone from the tree's, then it's gone for good.

Not necessarily, theyve said they are adding passive bonuses based off what tree you take. I don't know where the as you level came from haven't heard that.. I will also agree that they need to shine these up a bit, however I don think they are moving in the right direction.

[Palladiamorsdeus]

You get masteries when you pick a tree at level ten. Right now for BM, those are intimidate and pushback resistence. At around level 75 you learn the 'mastery' ability, which adds the former third mastery, and then that is effected by stats.

The passive bonus or bonus's that you learn based on your tree are also static now, and do not scale based on talent points put into tree or on level.

[Kalliope]

Why are people bitching about being forced to take PvP talents? One of Blizzard's goals here is to give EVERYONE a spec that works in PvE and PvP without needing to respec. Obviously, if you want to min-max for one or the other, there will still probably be a few points to move, but at least you won't be completely screwed in the other. This is the big experiment, really. If it doesn't work out, due to people being incredibly set in their ways, I'm sure it will be changed.

[Saturo]

I don't have anything against PvP talents, but it's a COMPLETE FUCKING WASTE for PvE specs.

[Palladiamorsdeus]

I have no problem with positive change. If this ends up for the better then I am all for it. But at the moment, it is not good. At all. And BM is being screwed out more then just about any other spec. So of course I am not happy.

[Anansi]

Why are people bitching about being forced to take PvP talents? One of Blizzard's goals here is to give EVERYONE a spec that works in PvE and PvP without needing to respec. Obviously, if you want to min-max for one or the other, there will still probably be a few points to move, but at least you won't be completely screwed in the other. This is the big experiment, really. If it doesn't work out, due to people being incredibly set in their ways, I'm sure it will be changed.

The problem with that approach is that part of the fun of playing a class is the "mini-game" of building a spec for different situations. It can be strangely freeing to give up some of your core PvE talents in exchange for those PvP talents and seeing how they work out, and tweaking as needed. Or building a different spec for specific raid fights again utilising some of those rarely used talents.

Likewise in trying to build the perfect raid spec, it's fun to plot and scheme and theorycraft and all of that. We don't want a general purpose spec, a spec is not general purpose, it's specification, thus for specific usage. If your talents are general purpose it's just boring and disappointing.
So not only is a raider forced to take useless PvP talents, that person does not have much of a choice about what to take especially when none of the options are at all useful.

[Palladiamorsdeus]

Pretty much what Anansi said. It should be an actual decsion on your part if you want to take PvE, or PvP talents. What's wrong with having to respec to do something else? You have to have a completely different set of gear for it as well, so why not a completely different talent spec?

It's just not really optimal to force people to take one kind of talent when they have no interest in doing that particular form of game play. If people want to PvP, they may not want certain PvE talents. If people want to PvE, they aren't going to need many if any of the PvP talents. People just aren't happy about being forced to take stuff that they don't need for what they want to do.

[Kalliope]

Why are people bitching about being forced to take PvP talents? One of Blizzard's goals here is to give EVERYONE a spec that works in PvE and PvP without needing to respec. Obviously, if you want to min-max for one or the other, there will still probably be a few points to move, but at least you won't be completely screwed in the other. This is the big experiment, really. If it doesn't work out, due to people being incredibly set in their ways, I'm sure it will be changed.

The problem with that approach is that part of the fun of playing a class is the "mini-game" of building a spec for different situations. It can be strangely freeing to give up some of your core PvE talents in exchange for those PvP talents and seeing how they work out, and tweaking as needed. Or building a different spec for specific raid fights again utilising some of those rarely used talents.

Likewise in trying to build the perfect raid spec, it's fun to plot and scheme and theorycraft and all of that. We don't want a general purpose spec, a spec is not general purpose, it's specification, thus for specific usage. If your talents are general purpose it's just boring and disappointing.
So not only is a raider forced to take useless PvP talents, that person does not have much of a choice about what to take especially when none of the options are at all useful.

This is a much stronger argument against the new system, and a viewpoint which is understandable.

Selfishly, I kind of like the idea of a multipurpose spec, since I hate being forced into having two very similar specs for PvE and PvP and not being able to touch other trees (like BM). I can't be bothered respeccing one spec constantly; it's too much of a pain.

[Anansi]

Pretty much what Anansi said. It should be an actual decsion on your part if you want to take PvE, or PvP talents. What's wrong with having to respec to do something else? You have to have a completely different set of gear for it as well, so why not a completely different talent spec?

It's just not really optimal to force people to take one kind of talent when they have no interest in doing that particular form of game play. If people want to PvP, they may not want certain PvE talents. If people want to PvE, they aren't going to need many if any of the PvP talents. People just aren't happy about being forced to take stuff that they don't need for what they want to do.

Exactly. And if a player wants a general purpose spec they can do that as well. Blizzard is free of course to do what they want with their game, but when they state (quite enthusiastically) that they want players to have choices of cool talents, then release something like the Hunter trees, one has to wonder "wtf?"; we have less choice now than we did before.

We do have dual specs for the very purpose of allowing the freedom to switch between roles, and one of those options is a PvE spec and a PvP spec if one enjoys PvP. We can also carry two PvE or PvP specs to suit certain battles. Bottom line is that we have choice, and the new system as it stands for Hunters removes that choice at the same time as Blizzard proclaims "more choice for players!".

[Sarayana]

I really agree with this assessment Anansi. I was trying to plop in talents for all three trees, and in all three cases I really didn't find there was much of a choice for talents (admittedly for pve-focused play - I didn't consider pvp specs). Anyone that has played a hunter to cap would most likely end up with the same tree, with one or two points' variation.

I know this is going to sound weird, but while Blizz is clearly making an effort to make it easy to spec "right" (and avoid those herp derp specs with 71 points in one tree because the player didn't know better) I kinda want it that way. What's wrong with the potential of making a wrong choice? For a player that doesn't read blogs/forums/guides about their class and spec, isn't that how you learn what works and what doesn't? Trial and error was how I did things until I started raiding and began reading min/maxing blogs and fora.

[Palladiamorsdeus]

Sarayana, when I was leveling my hunter, I never once looked at any boards, or websites. No EJ, not even MMO. I came to Petopia, and that was about it. Upon actually discovering them in TBC, I found that I was maybe two points off of what was considered the 'optimal' spec.

My point is, it's best to learn what's best for YOU as you level. Respeccing isn't really costly, and later on it's even trivial. You can afford some trial and error. I absolutely agree with you.

[Kalliope]

Pretty much what Anansi said. It should be an actual decsion on your part if you want to take PvE, or PvP talents. What's wrong with having to respec to do something else? You have to have a completely different set of gear for it as well, so why not a completely different talent spec?

It's just not really optimal to force people to take one kind of talent when they have no interest in doing that particular form of game play. If people want to PvP, they may not want certain PvE talents. If people want to PvE, they aren't going to need many if any of the PvP talents. People just aren't happy about being forced to take stuff that they don't need for what they want to do.

Exactly. And if a player wants a general purpose spec they can do that as well. Blizzard is free of course to do what they want with their game, but when they state (quite enthusiastically) that they want players to have choices of cool talents, then release something like the Hunter trees, one has to wonder "wtf?"; we have less choice now than we did before.

We do have dual specs for the very purpose of allowing the freedom to switch between roles, and one of those options is a PvE spec and a PvP spec if one enjoys PvP. We can also carry two PvE or PvP specs to suit certain battles. Bottom line is that we have choice, and the new system as it stands for Hunters removes that choice at the same time as Blizzard proclaims "more choice for players!".

^
And this is why I hope Blizzard DOES tweak the system back in that direction. I'll live without a BM spec.

[Sarayana]

Sarayana, when I was leveling my hunter, I never once looked at any boards, or websites. No EJ, not even MMO. I came to Petopia, and that was about it. Upon actually discovering them in TBC, I found that I was maybe two points off of what was considered the 'optimal' spec.

My point is, it's best to learn what's best for YOU as you level. Respeccing isn't really costly, and later on it's even trivial. You can afford some trial and error. I absolutely agree with you.

It was just such a big part of the game for me when I was leveling Sarayana. A ding meant an instant time-out (unless I was being chewed on, of course ) so I could see what possible cool talents I'd be able to grab. I honestly can't recall how bad it was when I finally did look up specs and such, but I was more than a few points off.

It's a part of the game that I sort of miss now, when leveling alts. It's not new, each level simply means plopping another point into the tree I have pre-planned and saved from wowhead. It's less of a by-level discovery and more of another step towards the final goal, if that makes sense...

[Palladiamorsdeus]

It absolutely does. I also remember back when they were doing the class overhauls during vanilla, how excited everyone was about the new things there. So then you'd go through and you'd try to figure out what was best all over again....it was like Christmas! *Laughs*

I wouldn't mind a revitalization of the talent tree's, to be honest. I do miss that feeling of discovery. But this current iteration? It's just not it.

[Anansi]

I really agree with this assessment Anansi. I was trying to plop in talents for all three trees, and in all three cases I really didn't find there was much of a choice for talents (admittedly for pve-focused play - I didn't consider pvp specs). Anyone that has played a hunter to cap would most likely end up with the same tree, with one or two points' variation.

I know this is going to sound weird, but while Blizz is clearly making an effort to make it easy to spec "right" (and avoid those herp derp specs with 71 points in one tree because the player didn't know better) I kinda want it that way. What's wrong with the potential of making a wrong choice? For a player that doesn't read blogs/forums/guides about their class and spec, isn't that how you learn what works and what doesn't? Trial and error was how I did things until I started raiding and began reading min/maxing blogs and fora.

Yeah, there's not going to be much of a difference between Hunters at all regardless of their content level or preferences.
This is the spec I've tentatively put together, one point could shuffle between Rapid Recuperation and Master Marksman depending on how Focus regen is and how the proc rate on Master Marksman stacks turns out to be at 40%. But the fact that I have to waste points in RiF, Concussive Barrage and Dazzled Prey instead of putting 2/2 RR and 3/3 MM is ridiculous.

I agree with the notion of what's wrong with making mistakes, mistakes are a way of learning. In making it easy to spec "right", they've taken away all the fun of speccing at all. Part of the game is working on your spec, perfecting it, altering it and so on. It's very disappointing.

[Ellaran]

Let's not forget that it was PvP (specifically, Arena) that began screwing us over in the first place. BM Hunters, using a specific method, defeated the cookie-cutter Arena team setup people had used for months. The people using that setup cried "OMG BM IS TOO POWERFUL NERF PLEASE!!", Blizzard complied, and BW was chopped in half and reduced in damage. All other nerfs afterwards have been a result if PvP/Arena, and ONLY PvP/Arena. The reason we suck so bad in raids is because we were once too good for BGs.

My idea: separate all PvE and PvP talents, make two separate trees for each spec (one PvE talents, one PvP talents), and each is active only in its specific environment (you're fighting Arthas, the PvE spec is active. When you finish with him and head over to Wintergrasp, the PvP tree kicks in). You can respec them separately, and Dual Spec affects them both, but we'll no longer have to bother with talents we don't need or use because we don't PvP or don't raid.

Then Blizzard can finally balance everyone in both areas.

[Mockingbird]

And when youre in a contested PvE area on a PvP realm?

[Sarayana]

Mmm much as I like that idea, I don't think it'll work Ellaran. Mockingbird pointed out its basic flaw, but you also have to remember how much work it'd be for Blizz to code that.

[Kalliope]

Let's not forget that it was PvP (specifically, Arena) that began screwing us over in the first place. BM Hunters, using a specific method, defeated the cookie-cutter Arena team setup people had used for months. The people using that setup cried "OMG BM IS TOO POWERFUL NERF PLEASE!!", Blizzard complied, and BW was chopped in half and reduced in damage. All other nerfs afterwards have been a result if PvP/Arena, and ONLY PvP/Arena. The reason we suck so bad in raids is because we were once too good for BGs.

Did you ever fight against a beastcleave team? It was faceroll win. >_> Although some of these wizard cleave teams with elemental shammies and owls are pretty damned ridiculous as well.....where are THOSE nerfs? -_-