Need Input Re: Guild Politics and Loot

[Anansi]

I think I know the answer, but I'm not sure and so I'm asking you folks here because collectively you seem to lean more towards the casual side of WoW and thus have more value on inter-guild relations, so I may be able to get a broader perspective. There are two key factors to the issue, so I will break them out below.

Guild background info: I recently joined a new guild, both new to me and fairly new unto themselves, having about a month and half ago broken off from their guild due to the usual things for which one leaves a guild. I really like most of them and while the focus is raiding, they are also quite laid back, patient, friendly and accommodating. I've done a few 10 man ICC raids with them, and last night was our first ICC25 with all the new folks (I brought about 10 geared, knowledgeable, experienced players with me thus allowing the new guild to move from 10s to 25s). Obviously it was a bit choppy but we did well and cleared the Lower Spire with only one wipe on Saurfang and some difficulty managing Lady D's adds (in three attempts this fight went from total chaos to carefully controlled add burning).

Personal loot philosophy info: I spend a crazy amount of time researching my class, both in spec, strategy, tactics and loot. Thus, I do not just roll on something if it looks sort of cool, I have an extremely specific and small list of loot items I want. I also believe that best-in-slot items should go to the players who will use that item to contribute the most to the raid, who will use it to the very best of their ability as shown by raid performance. I totally understand and appreciate a desire for equitable loot distribution (something my guild is keen on) but when it comes to certain things, the players who will use if for the best raid contributions should get them.

So, of course Deathbringer's Will drops, one of about half a dozen loot items I'm after. The guild had no loot system aside from free roll in place. I came in second to a Warrior on the roll. Ok, he's running DPS but is about 3k behind me on this fight, 4k overall. But whatever, it's bed-time and I'm tired. Then after the raid he links a belt he picked up with badges, a tank belt. I check his guild note and it says "tank". DBW is a DPS trinket and BIS for me (Marks Hunter). So I ask the co-GM if he rolled off-spec, she says he's a tank but is going to run DPS with us as we're full on tanks. I ask him what is main spec is and he says tank. So I say "so you rolled for a DPS trinket and you're a tank?" and he apologises, said he wasn't aware Hunters needed Armour Penetration etc, and I explain it's absolutely BIS for me and he offers to give it to me. Cool, right? I thought he was being awesome and he says to guild chat he gave the trinket to me. Well then the co-GM told him privately (he passed this on to me) that he should not have done so because he's running DPS with the guild.

So now I'm feeling bad. I know the trinket with me is with the person who (out of the people who rolled on it, the Warrior and two Hunters) will do the most with it. So from a raid perspective, I'm confident here. But I also appreciate and enjoy the casual and social side of WoW and don't want to cause any friction. Thus, I'm torn. Do I keep it, or give it back to him?
What would you do?

[Congafury]

This is a hard decigion to make, but as long as the Warrior is ok with that and considering the fact that he gave the trinket to you without any supression from your side i think you should keep it. Even though he's running dps with you -it's not his main spec. And i doubt that some little thing like the trinket can cause any serious tension inside the guild.

[Azzrazzah]

Same here if he was willing to trade and no one is pissed about it.. keep it....
My guild first rolls Main spec on items; most know what's needed for their characters and our GM and Assistant Gm knows what goes with specs and they ask if someone not of the spec wants it, why they want it.. then if no one wants; Off spec is rolled... If then none want, it's DE and the de item is then rolled on..

[Anansi]

Well I don't know if anyone is pissed about it. The player was very amicable when he traded it, but I'm worried the GM(s) might be annoyed that I asked him, and that the warrior player may now, in retrospect, regret trading it since the co-GM told him he should not have done so. But I don't know what the tone in that conversation was, whether it was serious or a sort of "you dork, why'd you do that?" kind of thing.

I believe the Warrior has prior to joining the guild been a tank, but because we are full on tanks, he has been asked to go DPS which is his off-spec. Which is fine, but DBW is not a "gearing up an off-spec" item, and at the same time he did burn 60 Frost badges on a tank belt after he'd been asked to focus on DPS. So I think I'm in the right, but I still feel bad.

And Azzrazzah, that's the sort of loot system I'm used to, where the GM/raid leader is well-versed in classes and specs and their gear needs. Unfortunately, this GM is not. We used free roll last night because no system was in place. However, one of my friends that I brought in that they officer-ized (I dodged that bullet!) has talked them into trying EPGP, a system we had used in the past in a previous guild. We'll see how that goes.....

[Sharilar]

My guild has always done free roll(mainspec first, then offspec), but with a caveat that if someone's already won something, try to spread the love around a little. The officers will also sometimes pass over the actual winner of the roll if it's plainly better for the 2nd or third person down, but 95% of the time probably it just goes to the winner of the roll.
Also in situations like that, I know in our case it would have been the "you dork!' response, as once you get the drop it's your business if you want to keep it or pass it to someone else that rolled.

[Anansi]

Yeah, that's what they were trying to do but with some of the 25 man ICC loot, it gets a bit contentious. For example they gave a Sanctification mark to a Paladin who only had one piece of T10 (the gloves), over some Warlocks who had 4pc T10 but had already won something that night. Stuff like that should go to the people who clearly put the effort into their character, not someone who got a drop in a VOA10 and was rolling because the item said "Paladin" on it.

Our guild is a real mix of experienced raiders and people new to raiding, so it's a challenge.

[Ryai]

Well I'm a bit on the fence here- because my Paladin is MS dps, but his offspecc has become his main.

DPS? what's that, all I do is faceroll crap to keep everything on me in pugs. Prot is my offspecc but It is now my mainspecc and just it gets confusing. If he wasn't still trying to gear up his 'main specc' I would say that both of you should have a fair shot over it. Especially if they're wanting to gear him up as DPS. But if he does know that he needs to be gearing up as DPS, he should be doing what I have done- prioritizing Prot over Ret, because I am Prot first now, Ret second. It doesn't matter which is the 'main' specc and which is the 'offspecc' now imo, when you're in a guild, if you accept the fact that your guild is to full of tanks atm for you to tank, go dps. Meaning- he should have wasted the emblems on a dps item, not a tanking item, unless he didn't need a dps item? Or does he- if so then yes as I said in my TLDR way, he should be prioritizing DPS now.

The other thing is, I think it's pretty much fair game now, mean if he is going to be running as DPS/his 'main specc' for the time being while in your guild is going to be DPS since the other tanks are taking priority over him, then he had a fair shot at the trinket as much as you did.


It'd kinda be like me running a dungeon as prot- which I do, but needing on tanking kit AND dps kit, without asking about the latter. It doesn't matter if dps is my main specc, I'm not dpsing atm, so I don't have rights to it. While when I'm tanking I DO have rights to tanking kit before anyone else does- simply because I'm the one tanking atm.

Anyways TLDR, imo you both had fair rights to it- tho you more than him atm because he still doesn't understand that he needs to be caring more about gearing up his DPS specc than his tank specc.

[Tahlian]

IMHO, any guild that uses a free roll system on progression-level content loot is going to wind up having trouble in the long run. The raid I run with used a modified free roll system during BC...and there was one person in the raid, a great contributor, a raid officer, and really on top of her stuff, who quite literally never got a drop due to bad rolling luck. If someone keeps getting stiffed by the RNG gods, they're quite likely to leave the raid and find one where they feel they have a better chance at loot. Our raid officers made the decision to switch to a Suicide Kings system for Wrath content, and apart from one or two little hiccups as philosophies adjusted to things like the advent of being able to dual-spec, it's worked great for us.

As for your particular situation? I honestly don't know what I'd have done. On the one hand, I really, really want that trinket. It's why I'm sitting on the top of the SK list and I'm not going to bid on anything else until DBW drops again so I can get it. But the other guy did roll higher. The RNG sucks sometimes, but that's how it is. If you're cool with it and the warrior is cool with it, then I guess no harm no foul. But your raid group might want to rethink its loot policy to make things a bit more equitable in the future.

[Anansi]

It'd kinda be like me running a dungeon as prot- which I do, but needing on tanking kit AND dps kit, without asking about the latter. It doesn't matter if dps is my main specc, I'm not dpsing atm, so I don't have rights to it. While when I'm tanking I DO have rights to tanking kit before anyone else does- simply because I'm the one tanking atm.

Anyways TLDR, imo you both had fair rights to it- tho you more than him atm because he still doesn't understand that he needs to be caring more about gearing up his DPS specc than his tank specc.

Yeah, I hear you there. Of course the problem with the approach of "I'm x spec here so I go for x spec loot as priority but am z spec here so go for z spec loot priority" is that one player ends up being equally eligible for two specs worth of gear, rather than two players. If the player runs a raid one week as tank and gets a tank piece, then the next week as DPS and gets a DPS piece (new week, so loot quantity is "reset") that's one player with gear that really two people could have used.

As for the Warrior in my situation, I don't think he does understand that he needs to be caring more about his DPS spec now, since he burned 60 badges on a tank belt and announced it to guild along with a "one more piece to go!" comment - so he's clearly still prioritizing tank spec.
If he had linked a DPS belt and commented that he had certain DPS items to buy I would not have given it a second thought. But not only am I keen on the small pool of loot items I'm after, I'm a stickler for the raid to gear properly (in the same raid I called out a Resto Shaman for rolling on Shaman Hit gear), so it kind of gets under my skin a bit.

And Tahlian, yes, they have rethought their loot policy and are trying out EPGP (effort points to gear points priority rank system).

[Ryai]

Well until he does understand, he shouldn't get first shot to dps loot or tanking loot, as well even I know that there are places/requirements to things, and while I'm partly glad I'm not in a guild as you know sometimes they just take it to far for rules/regulations and destroy the fun of the game- people like this still need to understand it's not about 'me me me, I, I, I' when you're in a raiding guild.

Perhaps you could sit him, and the GM down- explain this to them, not just crying foul on bad looters or getting in a new loot system. Tho the system will help, but I don't think the war may get it even then. I mean you're not being selfish or anything but perhaps they need to be reminded a raid is about teamwork.


And sides it doesn't sound as bad or forceful of some guilds I've heard of, he should count himself lucky >_>

[Anansi]

Perhaps you could sit him, and the GM down- explain this to them, not just crying foul on bad looters or getting in a new loot system. Tho the system will help, but I don't think the war may get it even then. I mean you're not being selfish or anything but perhaps they need to be reminded a raid is about teamwork.

And sides it doesn't sound as bad or forceful of some guilds I've heard of, he should count himself lucky >_>

Well I equipped the trinket so I've committed to it, no trading it back now. If anyone has any issue to raise I will discuss it privately in vent with them but otherwise will continue as normal.

Thanks for all the input folks, I really appreciate it.