Wolf vs Devilsaur

[Acherontia]

Does anyone know where the Devilsaur actually begins to outperform the Wolf in BM raiding? Or even more specifically, what affects each of their damage, what increases each of their damage more, scaling-wise, etc?

I have one of each, love 'em both, use 'em both. But I can't seem to find a correlation in their damage increases/decreases based on which buffs I have--from testing or female-dwarf. Solo, my wolf slightly outperforms the Devilsaur both individually and as a whole with me. In a raid it seems to vary widely.

* Is it just based on movement (i.e. if I'm having to move a lot, Devilsaur > Wolf due to who's doing the damage)?

* And/or do certain buffs scale better with Wolf than Devilsaur?

* Does gemming for AP/Agi/ArP affect Wolf & Devilsaur damage, and if so, how for each? (I'm currently at high-ish gear levels so gemming and enchanting for mostly Agility)

Apologies for the massive wall of question-text, but this has been bothering me for awhile and I'm terrible at math. I can't find any consistency in the spreadsheets. I'd go test on dummies but prepaid time just ran out

[Saturo]

The devilsaurs would be the best option for movement-heavy fights, since the wolf's buff's strong side is that it buffs you. If you're moving, you'll lose that benefit. Buffs affect both pets the same ways, but the devilsaurs would benefit a bit more. As BM you should gem AP, until you reach the limit where you regem for ArP.

[Acherontia]

I'd been told repeatedly that Devilsaur outdoes Wolf for BM, but I'm not seeing it. I don't know why.

I'd also read in a couple places that BM can and should gem Agility between the Ap/ArP gear levels, like any other spec--does anyone have links to show testing grounds or info one way or another, as to when each should be changed and why? I'm really hesitant to spend a billion gold changing gems & enchants without knowing 100% WHY I'm doing it, quite simply because I'm terrible at math and everyone seems to have differing information

[Slickrock]

Ok, at my gear level, with FULL raid buffs, the Devilsaur outpaces the wolf by about 34 dps. With no buffs, the wolf is ahead of the Trex by ~60dps.

Where's the crossover? who knows. There are probably about 40 variables between buffs, gear, gemming, and movement. I would say that in a 25-man raid, they will be close enough that you could pull out either one. 10-man less so. But you really can't say a definitive point, because so much relies on raid buffs.

You would likely want the wolf out on fights where the pet can't hit the boss as much, and the Trex where the pet can chew on the boss full time.

Yes, the gemming does effect it as well, however, once you get past about 550 or so passive Arp, it's generally better to gem for Arp regardless.

If you want to research it yourself (which you really should, as a lot depends on your gear and talents), check out the spreadsheet at http://www.femaledwarf.com/

[Slickrock]

I'd been told repeatedly that Devilsaur outdoes Wolf for BM, but I'm not seeing it. I don't know why.

I'd also read in a couple places that BM can and should gem Agility between the Ap/ArP gear levels, like any other spec--does anyone have links to show testing grounds or info one way or another, as to when each should be changed and why? I'm really hesitant to spend a billion gold changing gems & enchants without knowing 100% WHY I'm doing it, quite simply because I'm terrible at math and everyone seems to have differing information

As I mentioned above, the Wolf is on top until you get to max-buff situations, where the buffs really start boosting the Trex, but there is no clear cross-over point, there are too many variables.

Regarding gemming, it's safe to gem for AGI until about 550 or so passive Arp, at which point you can start gemming Arp. But it's a gradual thing, so no, it's not worth going out spending $3k in gems for a ~50dps gain. I would only change to Arp gems on gear that is BiS or close to it, or at least gear you are not likely to upgrade soon.

But as I suggest above, check out the spreadsheet, and decide for yourself.

[Acherontia]

I've worked with Female-dwarf before. I just don't know how accurate it is.

This guy says 800 ArP before gemming, and that's as MM, which doesn't have a pet as 1/2 the damage. This is the problem I'm having--I'm bad at math myself, and nobody can clearly explain WHY certain stats are better at certain levels. I'm just going to stick to my Agility gems for now regardless; I remember reading a brilliantly detailed explanation of why you can & should go Agility at around my gear level. If only I could remember where it was...

Anyway, with femaledwarf & testing, the Wolf has shown to be on top in most situations. Fully 25-man raidbuffed, with bloodlust, the Devilsaur was outdoing it by a whopping 23 dps. Total hunter+pet.

There's another bonus, though, to using the Devilsaur, especially my lime green variety:

I leave my pets on Defensive, as this I believe has a hidden threat mechanic, and often if a tank multi-pulls and loses a mob, the pet will charge off after it. Having a massive green T-Rex run after a mob is far more visible than losing my wolf in a pack of trash, and I'll be able to tell more easily where he is & what he is doing. I have Devilsaur-tanked ICC trash this way, among other things, by a combination of intimidation/growl/mend pet & cower. It's a little harder to manage a wolf like this, since I'm too busy with my own positioning & rotation to try and find him.

I was hoping someone had specific numbers or an idea of why and when each pet would do better on a flat fight, but I suppose I'll be sticking with devilsaur for larger raids, just so I can watch where he is & leave him on Marrowgar/Lady Deathwhisper, for example, while I'm off killing adds or avoiding Coldflame.

[Slickrock]

Well, the thing with the spreadsheet is that it is one set of conditions. No one really knows otherwise. It's a bit easier for other classes.

But, you are certainly valid in keeping AGI for now. The difference, if there is one, isn't significant until late into Icecrown gear.

And you are right about loosing the wolf, especially when 3 other hunters have the same wolf.

[Slickrock]

On a side note, and perhaps something for a new thread is, which pet to bring to which fight?

Let's just say the total dps is the same.

All the fights in the lower section and plaguewing, other than gunship, would benefit (or at least not be hindered) by a Trex.

Blood council, Vala, and Sind all would benefit from the wolf.

No idea on LK.. probably the wolf.

[Saturo]

I'd say the Dino on LK. It's a movement heavy fight.

[Slickrock]

I'd say the Dino on LK. It's a movement heavy fight.

Can the Dino keep chewing on him (or a major add?)?

[Acherontia]

I've done pugs up to and including Rot/Fester, but as I'm in a casual guild (nonraiding) I haven't yet gotten farther. Bad luck with pugs mostly. So I can't comment on anything past that, but I can say that Devilsaur is probably better for most of the fights up until there if not all. When you're hitting a different target then they're about theh same, but when you have to move, yes your Devil does the dirty work!

It's nice outdoing those snobby MM hunters who snub your Beast Masteriness, and then ask after the fight, "How did you outdps me?!"

Even better when Valak out-dpses some of the actual players in a fight

I'm still wondering if there's a particular stat or set of stats that would make one pet outweigh the other, but it's an interesting question tactically as well, as in which pet for which fights. It's crazy how much a little thing like which hunter pet you have out can make such a big DPS different on a boss.

[Saturo]

I'd say the Dino on LK. It's a movement heavy fight.

Can the Dino keep chewing on him (or a major add?)?

Yup. The wolf is only competitive because it buffs the hunter too. The hunter needs to be immobile to bring the pain. Thus, for movement heavy fights, you'll want your pet to be a bit more painful, so devilsaurs is the way to go.

[Acherontia]

That's one of the things that bothers me, actually; my wolf out-dps's my Devil solo sometimes. And I can't figure out what's doing it.

I may have to spend several years testing this with different buffs and so forth

[Saturo]

Could be RNG.

(If you intend to raid with a BM-spec, don't mount up during bufftimes. Begging for a pallybuff can be embarrassing.)

[Acherontia]

Oh God, tell me about it. I learned that the hard way early on

And recently a pug raid leader said "Okay hunter, you're feign-pulling Sartharion, mount up!"

I said NO! ...BUFF PET! ...Although politely

I think one of the best pet names I've ever seen was BuffMeToo.