Cunning might be BM hunters' pet of choice

[Byako]

Due to our raid buff/debuff method now, we might have to use Cunning pets in raids more often than before, over Ferocity which might be missing the raid buff/debuff the raid needs.

So going over the pet talent trees (might still be modified), I realize something interesting.

It's concerning the new Wild Hunt, which no longer improves your pet's Stam and AP scaling with you. Instead it's, quote: "When your pet is at or above 50 Focus, your pet's basic attacks will deal 120% more damage, but cost 100% additional focus."

Because of this talent, a BM hunter is pretty much focus on taking a lot of focus regen talents to make sure the pet NEVER drops below 50 Focus. It's the overkill of using Go for the Throat, + the Focus regen talent, + the Focus max talent.

BUT, Cunning pets have this talent Owl's Focus which states "Your pet has a 30% chance after using a Basic Attack to cause its next Basic Attack to cost no Focus if used within 8 seconds."

The combo of 2/2 Wild Hunt and this talent can be STAGGERING. Your pet would not use the Focus, meaning it'll be at full strength, and 8 seconds is big enough that a 30% chance on a Basic Attack to proc it again and again is pretty much certain.

Here's a damage-centric tree I made, that still had enough to get Bullheaded for the pet for use in PvP situations: http://cata.wowhead.com/petcalc#Mfbo00fh0rkob

Of course, what we give up is Call of the Wild and Rabid. In the tradeoff, we get Roar of Recovery, which can be used after Fervor to give us another Focus regenning ability.

I'm not sure how the math would work, but it might mean we wouldn't even need to put points into Bestial Discipline, or other pet-Focus regen talents, and focus on other potential talents.

[Ryai]

Blizzard has stated repeatedly they want Ferocity to be the top DPS pet, even over cunning. Yes they want Cunning viable but Cunning is supposed to be more of a utility/pvp pet specc, over dps speccing [tho if this was true it should have heart of the phoenix or atleast lick your wounds and the HotP become baseline for all pets]

Meaning if cunning pets do to much damage they will ultimately be nerfed if Blizzard keeps to the true Ferocity before Cunning beforeTenacity stack for dps.

Meaning; if you have Wild Hunt, Owls Focus will no longer work. Or if you have Owls Focus you will NOT be able to use Wild Hunt or vice versa.

[Byako]

Actually, since they both work currently, so yeah. It's not about theories, well actually mine is working. I just have to parse some numbers to see if it holds true.

And actually Blizz said they wanted a hunter's DPS to NOT be gimped by his choice of pet. Since some raid debuffs/buffs ARE only on Cunning pets (such as the 8% damage increase on target for Wind Serpents/Dragonhawks, both Cunning), they MUST be compensated damage-wise since they can't use a Ferocity pet.

[Ryai]

Actually, since they both work currently, so yeah. It's not about theories, well actually mine is working. I just have to parse some numbers to see if it holds true.

And actually Blizz said they wanted a hunter's DPS to NOT be gimped by his choice of pet. Since some raid debuffs/buffs ARE only on Cunning pets (such as the 8% damage increase on target for Wind Serpents/Dragonhawks, both Cunning), they MUST be compensated damage-wise since they can't use a Ferocity pet.

Look you'd have to go digging thru MMO but Boulb clearly quoted a Dev post, an official blue dev post about pet DPS and this Dev clearly stated that while they want cunning to be Viable, they want Ferocity to be the first choice over cunning. And what you are saying is also going to be contradicting what Blizzard has stated because if Cunning does turn into such an op pet for BM, it will be nerfed as the chance of having a pet almost constantly above 50 focus to do such powerful damage would be something Blizzard would not want as not only would the stigma of 'bring XX or go home' come back, along with everyone trying to tell you how to play- again, something would have to be done because Blizzard would not really want hunters with a pet constantly above 50% focus and dishing out more dps, than a Specficically DPS PET.

[Lisaara]

I agree with ryai. Plus most abilities the cunning pets have...bosses are IMMUNE to them making them pretty much useless in any raids. They'd only be good somewhat for trash mobs. But overall, for a raid, the ferocity buff tops them and there was a blue post stating that Ferocity is meant for raids. Cunning has ALWAYS been for pvp.

[Byako]

Look, what is said is NOT what is applied. If currently on Live, my theory is correct, than it is correct. Also this was proven previously by a BM hunter that for a while, using a Cunning pet was superior due to the way Feeding Frenzy buffed Wolverine Bite and other damage.

Alot of you are quoting a dev's post, but all he has stated is the goals, which would not be realized till into Cata because balancing isn't even complete yet. I'm talking about currently, and about actually using your own observations and testing.

And due to the way the pet pass has gone, even Ferocity pets have Cunning pet abilities now, and vice versa. It's even more pronounced now, than before. The talent linked for the Cunning pet shows him using all the DPS increasing talents and the only utility one is Roar of Recovery, which as I pointed out, gives a BM hunter a 2nd focus regen ability besides Fervor.

I suggest that instead of continuously quoting a blue post, which is irrelevant at this state, you guys give it a try as well. I'm not free to test out a full levelled Cunning pet on a dummy yet, but if my theory holds true, than that's that. Note that even now on Live, multiple abilities and talents aren't even working across multiple classes/specs, don't talk about just Hunters. Ravage can't be macroed for Hunters, Chimera's Frostbreath isn't working etc. A Blue post is about as relevant to the current state of things as a prediction of the end of the world (aka Cata).

[Ryai]

And due to the way the pet pass has gone,

Because Blizzard has NEVER gone back to fix, tinker, break, mend or resolve things.

A Blue post is about as relevant to the current state of things as a prediction of the end of the world (aka Cata).

You mean ignore the fact that a dev stated that it was not blizzard's intention, basically, to make Cunning such a 'glaringly evident go to pet for a BM hunter or any hunter'? And you don't think that something like this wouldn't be looked into, for the future? This would be like a Unholy DK keeping their ghoul up in the transformed stage almost 24/7 if micromanaged correctly, with how you're stating all the stuff you can do to try and keep a pet at over 50 focus to keep it pewpewing the damage meters for pets.

The combo of 2/2 Wild Hunt and this talent can be STAGGERING. Your pet would not use the Focus, meaning it'll be at full strength, and 8 seconds is big enough that a 30% chance on a Basic Attack to proc it again and again is pretty much certain.

I'm not sure how the math would work, but it might mean we wouldn't even need to put points into Bestial Discipline, or other pet-Focus regen talents, and focus on other potential talents.

From your first post; you would have to agree that having such a staggering amount of dps coming from a pet would be op, but then throw it into the fact that if someone wanted to increase the chances of this they could decide what the hell and go for GFFT and IMP discipline anyways since you need to put points somewhere anyways for BM?

See you're not getting what we are saying, you're to overjoyed over the fact of having a constantly ramped up pet it feels like, that you are basically telling us to 'stfu and stop quoting a dev' when we are also pointing out the fact if a pet can stay over 50 focus for an Extended duration and by extended I mean an entire fight, be it PVP or PVE, then that is way over the top imo.

As I said if it turns out that cunning is TO GOOD, Blizz will undoubtedly nerf it, so what I mean to say is DON'T put all your pets in one basket.

[Lisaara]

And due to the way the pet pass has gone,

Because Blizzard has NEVER gone back to fix, tinker, break, mend or resolve things.

A Blue post is about as relevant to the current state of things as a prediction of the end of the world (aka Cata).

You mean ignore the fact that a dev stated that it was not blizzard's intention, basically, to make Cunning such a 'glaringly evident go to pet for a BM hunter or any hunter'? And you don't think that something like this wouldn't be looked into, for the future? This would be like a Unholy DK keeping their ghoul up in the transformed stage almost 24/7 if micromanaged correctly, with how you're stating all the stuff you can do to try and keep a pet at over 50 focus to keep it pewpewing the damage meters for pets.

The combo of 2/2 Wild Hunt and this talent can be STAGGERING. Your pet would not use the Focus, meaning it'll be at full strength, and 8 seconds is big enough that a 30% chance on a Basic Attack to proc it again and again is pretty much certain.

I'm not sure how the math would work, but it might mean we wouldn't even need to put points into Bestial Discipline, or other pet-Focus regen talents, and focus on other potential talents.

From your first post; you would have to agree that having such a staggering amount of dps coming from a pet would be op, but then throw it into the fact that if someone wanted to increase the chances of this they could decide what the hell and go for GFFT and IMP discipline anyways since you need to put points somewhere anyways for BM?

See you're not getting what we are saying, you're to overjoyed over the fact of having a constantly ramped up pet it feels like, that you are basically telling us to 'stfu and stop quoting a dev' when we are also pointing out the fact if a pet can stay over 50 focus for an Extended duration and by extended I mean an entire fight, be it PVP or PVE, then that is way over the top imo.

As I said if it turns out that cunning is TO GOOD, Blizz will undoubtedly nerf it, so what I mean to say is DON'T put all your pets in one basket.

QFT. ^^; Dont get me wrong, I like cunning pets but they aren't top dog and never will be.

[Acherontia]

My Chimaera (one of the very few pets with a directly damaging ability) is about 100 dps beneath my wolf atm, more when factoring in my own damage with the 5% crit. I assume that once you factor in raid buffs, with the 5% crit covered elsewhere, the chimaera will come out on top, at least for me (best dps talents I can manage for Cunning, and BM PvE build).

[Byako]

Currently with a pure BM dps build, my Ferocity pets aren't staying above 50 Focus for even 10% of the time.

Reasons are:

a) Go for the Throat now only works on crits from AUTOSHOTs. This is interesting because BM (and possibly other specs) might consider an 'optimal' speed for weapons in order to increase the rate of autoshots. Or to stack haste at one point.

b) Haste doesn't seem to be transferring to pets. Even with Pet focus regen talents, my pet doesn't regenerate as quickly as my hunter over the same period of time.

c) Lack of synergy for BM talents. Cobra Strikes would be the equivalent of getting Owl's Focus for the entire range of pets, except it's yoked to Arcane Shot. MY MISTAKE. COBRA STRIKES DOES NOT REDUCE FOCUS COST, JUST INCREASES CRITICAL STRIKE.At the time of writing, my parses show that Arcane Shot hits for a fair amount, but can be about 5k lower per shot than Kill Command under the effects of BW.

Of course, KC costs a lot more, so technically you get more bang for your buck with Arcane Shot. But KC builds up to Killing Streak, and hits much harder with a pet under Bestial Wrath. Since KC's CD is so short, by the time you have enough spare Focus to start dumping, it's off CD again. If KC had a longer CD, the choice of Arcane Shot to KC would be easier, and the ratio would be better. It would lead to Cobra Strikes fitting into the basic BM rotation much better.

d) Focused Fire is suppose to refund 4 focus to the pet when used. This is pretty laughably low, unless it's 4 focus per Frenzy stacks consumed, which is a little better. This Focus is eaten up by the pet pretty quickly tho.

e) Bestial Wrath's Focus reduction cost seems to apply only to the Hunter, but not the pet. Ideally you can use Fervor to push both you and your pet back up to close to full Focus, and then use Bestial Wrath. Spamming with Arcane Shot would hopefully get you a proc in that time so that the pet actually stays at above 50 Focus.


As you can see, in the current state, you can't get your pet to stay above 50% Focus for any appreciable amount of time. Keep in mind I did change parts of haste rating on my gear into Mastery, which buffs pet damage by an appreciable amount. There's prolly a sweet spot between the two stats, but it'll not be attainable yet.

But the yoking of GTFO only to Autoshots is hurting. A BM hunter might actually aim for fast weapons now, just because of this talent unless they change it. Also, Cobra Strikes would definitely work better yoked to Steady Shot or Cobra Shot, where it would fit most naturally into the Hunter rotation.

In a short fight, a Ferocity pets burst damage is likely to be highest, but in a sustained fight, it would most likely be a Cunning pet with full DPS talents.

I may have been rude before, but it was more of a reaction towards people who didn't want to look at talents themselves. I now have evidence to back it up, though for a better study, I'm going to get a Ferocity pet and a Cunning pet with identical debuffs/buffs to test. It still wouldn't be ideal since a Cunning pet's Feeding Frenzy is likely going to skew the results, so hopefully I can find both a full health and below 20% target dummy.

Edit: Currently with 15% Mastery (buffing pet damage by 27%) and the T10 4pc bonuses, my pet is contributing up to 40% of my total dps. This is prolly from a still imperfect rotation tho, and through choosing KC over Arcane Shot whenever I can (so more damage comes from the pet). Pet damage is up to 3k over a sustained fight, and 3-4k over fast burst fights. This is using Ferocity pets Spirit Beast (STR/AGI buff) and a lvl 77 Core Hound (Ancient Hysteria). The difference between the two pets is not great despite the level difference for some reason. And esp since you'd think the Spirit Beast would be the superior one cos of the buff (I didn't use Ancient Hysteria while testing with my Core Hound).

Edit2: I just found out I got into the Cata beta. I'll prolly download the client over this weekend and see if I can get to lvl 85 with my hunter or get a premade. The thing now is to see what actual level of stats would be like at 85, especially with the problem of Haste.

[Rhyela]

Thanks for all your work looking into this! It's interesting, to say the least. I do look for either Ferocity pets to get buffed, or for Cunning pets to get nerfed. But in the meantime, I like to see how things are developing.

Thanks again!!!