The Lich Queen

[Saturo]

All of that was before the power went to her head. Somebody has to stop her madness. It is against nature to rise people from the dead, and you can argue with that, and She Will Be Judged.

[/quote]Seriously, this is starting to bother me. How is it against nature to raise them!?

[Lazuly]

Death is a part of life. To break that cycle, in which the dead return to the earth to feed new life, is damaging to nature.

[Saturo]

I could use the same argument and say that it's completely natural, since the dead would still turn to new life, if a bit slower. And I don't see it being "damaging to nature" in other ways than that they bombard certain areas with the plague.

[Turgus]

Death is a part of life. To break that cycle, in which the dead return to the earth to feed new life, is damaging to nature.

Wait.... what?
Are you talking about the Gaia Theory? Reincarnation?

How is the presence of the undead, the Forsaken specifically, damaging to nature?
If you are assuming that undeath is not a part of natural processes, how do you come to this assumption?
What measure are you using?

Are the use of clothing, the use of tools, the use of shelter, the creation of weapons, the mining of metals, the creation of writing, or the use of magic not a part of the natural processes?
Are they "damaging" to the "natural order" of things?
Or are they a part of the natural processes? And if so, why?
What makes them different than undeath?

Since I asked the questions, let me give you my answers.

No, there is no Gaia. No there is no reincarnation in WoW that I have seen.
The presence of the undead are not specifically damaging to nature.
Some aspects of them can be detrimental to some organisms, but advantageous to others.
Just like the presence or absence of certain chemicals, or nutrients.

The reason I come to this conclusion is this simple train of logic:
Undeath is created by a specific kind of magic, magic in WoW is actually a part of the natural cycle of Azeroth.
By extension this makes undeath a part of the natural cycle.

Likewise, the use of clothing, the use of tools, etc are by extension all a part of the natural cycle, because they were created by creatures (humans, trolls, etc) that are a part of the natural cycle.

Is undeath something that "living" creatures do not like? That they find detestable?
That is a different argument all together.
But I assert that the undead is indeed a part of the Natural Cycle of Azeroth.

[Royi]

Here, amongst much of this debate I'll settle it.

My God is bigger than your God, and my God says Sylvanas is cool and its ok for her to raise Undead, as long as they're nice to other people and bake cookies. There, settled. No more debate needed.

[Sonata]

The farmers were part of the militia, minutemen to be precise, which is kind of like the Army Reserve, so no they were not attacking on their own.
And yes, regardless of how little of a threat those "farmers" were to the undead fortified camp, they were a part of a two prong attack.
AKA why <insert player character name> had to deal with them in the quest line to keep the camp from being overran.

Yay more Turgus replies! 8D I missed you. *sends hugs*

Yes they are part of the militia but on the Alliance side of the Battle of Anderhal said <insert player here> were the ones who armed the famers and the farmers started attacking BEFORE Thassarian gave to word for the attack. So the farmers who you deal with the Gargoyle on the Horde side of the quest are actually the Alliance players fault and Thassarian scolds you for it.
He also says that it forces his hand and start the battle before he could order the troops properly.

And even if I said they would put their friendship aside for the battle and so on and they did. Last time I checked in war it was okay to do a backhanded attack...they both knew that they would be enemies, the only part that was broken was because the farmers grew a bit too cocky and started the attack early.

Sylvanas involving the Val'kyr didn't make it any better. Thassarian knew Koltira would not use Scourge (all the Valkyr involving quests are handed out by Sylvanas if I'm not mistaken) and knew it was Sylvanas. Also meaning in his mind that something HAD happened to Koltira, which involves Thassarian leaving towards Tirisfal Glades when the leading Val'kyr (Aradne I believe) is dead aka. this happened before (if I can identify it right) the Horde player shows up and find Lurid dead and the Alliance have retreated because their commander hightailed it out and commanded the troops to withdraw.

They wanted to fight eachother on equal grounds and Sylvanas wanted Andorhal fast and not wait for Koltira to solve his sappy sad story with Thassarian.
Also if Thrall knew about Sylvanas new little kill the alive and raise as dead, would he say a ye or nay to it.

Ignore me you who want to kill the alive and raise the dead....wait didn't I die and get ressed by Saturo as a minion the rebelled and got ressed to normal.

[Lisaara]

Thrall would say Nay because of how Sylvanas is going about it and disobeying Garrosh.

[Cerah]

Thrall would say Nay because of how Sylvanas is going about it and disobeying Garrosh.

I hope you don't seriously consider obeying Garrosh, of all people, something that should be a priority to Sylvanus, or anyone else who doesn't have his axe held to their neck.

When it came to Thrall, I could see Sylvanus having a kind of respect for him because of his actions. He allowed the Forsaken to ally themselves with the Horde in the first place, and he did come to her aid in the Battle of Undercity.

However, I think Vol'jin put it best when it comes to Hellscream:

"Ya be no Warchief of mine. Ya've not earned my respect ..."

[Turgus]

Hey Sonata!

Thanks for the Alliance side info on the Battle for Andorhal.
I did not see the video on youtube showing that part of the battle, so your post helps clear up a couple of things.
Of course I will look again on youtube and see if I can find the Alliance side video, so I understand exactly what went on there.

It should be noted that Sylvanas did not have a complete understanding of the situation, and maybe if she did maybe she would not have been as harsh to Koltira as she was.
Or maybe she would have been harsher. Who knows?

Thats the problem with making decision like this in battle, you do the best you can with the information that you have.
Sometimes it is the wrong decision, sometimes it is the right decision.
It is all relative. Depending on time and place.
But, I know I already went into that, lol

Here, amongst much of this debate I'll settle it.

My God is bigger than your God, and my God says Sylvanas is cool and its ok for her to raise Undead, as long as they're nice to other people and bake cookies. There, settled. No more debate needed.

As far as I understand it, we are not talking about that. (God?)
And even if we were, would that statement really settle it? (No, you are wrong! My God is bigger than your God times a million!)

How about this, put yourself in Sylvanas's place.

People, YOUR people are dying, and the town your are fighting over should have been taken days ago with all of the resources that you provided the commander with.
What? The enemy commander was a close personal friend of your commanders up until a month or two ago?
Was your commander squandering the resources that you gave him?
Was he just incompetent?
Or was he just going easy on his friend?
Who is at fault? And what are you going to do about it?

Everyone has an opinion on this, some are quite different than mine, but being able to explain why you hold a certain opinion is a necessity.
Why is what she did wrong and what would they have done in the same situation.
(Remember, they are at war, and on the battlefield, because this affects everything.)

Thats all I am interested in.
A better understanding.

[Vephriel]

*twitch* S-Y-L-V-A-N-A-S Sorry, can't help it. xD

[Lazuly]

Wait.... what?
Are you talking about the Gaia Theory? Reincarnation?

It's biological fact. When a living thing dies and breaks down, it's remains become the building blocks used to create new life (food for plants, bacteria, animals, etc). All matter is recycled via natural processes. If that process were to cease, the natural world would suffer and die. You see this plainly in all the Scourge and Plague-infested zones.

Keeping a dead thing alive with magic and cutting it off from the life cycle it was born into is as far from 'natural' as you can get. Plus, like I said before, who is asking these 'new' undead that Sylvanas is running around creating if they WANTED to be in this state? How is forcing people into becoming undead in any way 'okay'? Sylvanas needs cannon fodder, that's the only reason she's doing it, and she doesn't care what the people those bodies belong to want. That's not right. She's doing the same as the Lich King in that regard.

[Setanta]

Why would she want to be the "Lich Queen" when she seems content to be the Banshee Queen?

And how much of this "hate Sylvannas" comes from real life beliefs rather than in game beliefs?

[Lazuly]

And how much of this "hate Sylvannas" comes from real life beliefs rather than in game beliefs?

I personally am arguing from Laz's Tauren viewpoint. In 'real life' I don't care. =P

[Setanta]

And how much of this "hate Sylvannas" comes from real life beliefs rather than in game beliefs?

I personally am arguing from Laz's Tauren viewpoint. In 'real life' I don't care. =P

For you I figured it had to do with your character, I can see how Tauren and Night Elves with their closest ties to the Earth Mother beliefs and concepts would find her to be the most unnatural being in existence behind the Lich King. Humans having the hate because of the belief that the Forsaken are desecrating the graves of their beloved deceased relatives. I suppose with new race/class combos, any race that can be a druid would share the Tauren and Night Elf view.

Orcs mystify me in their dislike other than the fact that it mirrors Garrosh's dislike. But in his case that goes back more to the fact that his perception is that Orcs are the heart and soul of the Horde, and the other races are alliances of convenience and nothing more.

[Ryai]

She doesn't know about it. Lorewise, as the ones who killed Arthas told everyone else, the lich king is dead, and Bolvar as well. And really, Tirion is NOT the kind of guy to tell Sylvanas something like that.

Yes but lore wise there were horde characters that killed the lich king and saw it. You dont think some undead rogue wouldnt tell "Mommy Sylv" about it?

Belated post but; Sylvanas wouldn't ENSLAVE her people like that, she raises them up yes but they aren't enslaved the way that the Lich King did. And she's still not so twisted as to go for his crown; she never tried to go for it during the HoR events, she was just trying to pop a cap in the bastards ass. Besides, it's clear enough Sylvanas is going through other means to gain her goals.

And as I've said to friends, if the end truly comes and Sylvanas wins out the for sure races to survive? Forsaken and Blood Elves.

[Vephriel]

Mm hmm, the Forsaken are not slaves to her like some sort of hive mind. Even in the Undead starting quests when you're risen you see some NPCs who don't agree with it. Everyone's given a choice. You can do your own thing or fight for Sylvanas.

[Lazuly]

It's the same in that the people being made undead don't have a say in the matter. How much 'choice' do they have -- they cannot go back into human society. They can either be rotting hermits or be given some kind of 'normalized existence' by integrating into Forsaken society, working towards the goals set by Sylvanas. Or perhaps they could suicide. Great choices.

My point is, the first choice someone should be given is to decide if they want to become an undead in the first place (For players, the answer is obviously 'yes', but in the game story, Sylvanas is shown raising other dead people for her own purposes and they clearly were not given any say in the matter).

Many Tauren were moved to try and find a cure for the Forsaken, somehow. It was out of sympathy for living beings cruelly removed from the living world against their will. But by perpetuating the 'curse' of undeath herself, Sylvanas is showing that she rejects any attempt to undo the evils the Lich King did to her and her people -- instead wanting to copy his way of doing things. It's a dangerous road, even if her initial reasons behind it are well meaning. It is too easy to slip down into becoming the very thing she hated.

[The Number Nine]

What I also don't get here, is why are so many people in this thread so attached to the idea of what's "natural" and the destruction of "nature".
I personally don't care too much for what's good in nature's books, what's not-against-nature or against-nature, as long as it accomplishes your ultimate personal goal.

[Setanta]

It's the same in that the people being made undead don't have a say in the matter. How much 'choice' do they have -- they cannot go back into human society. They can either be rotting hermits or be given some kind of 'normalized existence' by integrating into Forsaken society, working towards the goals set by Sylvanas. Or perhaps they could suicide. Great choices.

My point is, the first choice someone should be given is to decide if they want to become an undead in the first place (For players, the answer is obviously 'yes', but in the game story, Sylvanas is shown raising other dead people for her own purposes and they clearly were not given any say in the matter).

Well technically that kind of application could make an argument against any sort of species procreation. I mean you don't have everyone else (except gnomes, because we all know gnomes are like gremlins, you get one wet and 10 more sprout up) asking their procreation contributions whether or not they choose to create a small fetus that grows into whatever species (sans gnome) that they are. Maybe that baby tauren doesn't want to be a tauren, or that baby dwarf a dwarf...they don't get a say in the matter either.

I mean in the same technical way, any parent could be considered to be creating life for their own purposes (generally carrying on the lineage). The only real difference between creating a 'natural' life and what Sylvanas is doing is that her 'children' have lived once before.

[Vephriel]

Well technically that kind of application could make an argument against any sort of species procreation. I mean you don't have everyone else (except gnomes, because we all know gnomes are like gremlins, you get one wet and 10 more sprout up) asking their procreation contributions whether or not they choose to create a small fetus that grows into whatever species (sans gnome) that they are. Maybe that baby tauren doesn't want to be a tauren, or that baby dwarf a dwarf...they don't get a say in the matter either.

I mean in the same technical way, any parent could be considered to be creating life for their own purposes (generally carrying on the lineage). The only real difference between creating a 'natural' life and what Sylvanas is doing is that her 'children' have lived once before.

^ So much this.