Zero Versus Oh

[VelkynKarma]

Indulge my curiosity!

At work, part of my job is to ask customers their zip codes before I can start ringing up their purchases. A lot of the zip codes around here start with the number 0, and naturally quite a few have 0's in them too.

Some people pronounce it zero. Some people pronounce it Oh, as in the letter.

This would mean almost nothing to me except, when people come in in pairs or bigger groups, it's surprising how often they will start bickering over "no, you pronounce it Zero/Oh!" They take it REALLY SERIOUSLY, man. So now I'm kinda curious.

Zero, or Oh?

~VelkynKarma

[Lupis]

*Shrug* For me, it depends on what the code or number is. If I'm saying something that's going to be made up on only numbers, then I use "Oh". The reason being, it's a shorter word that's easier to say.
For a letter-and-number code, however, I say Zero. Gods know it's hard enough to figure out which one is Zero - O or 0. Imagine it being said out loud! There's no difference between "Oh" and "Oh".

[Vephriel]

I use both actually, but I think for the most part I say 'Oh'. Sometimes I'll use 'Zero' instead if it's unclear if we're talking letters or numbers.

EDIT:

*Shrug* For me, it depends on what the code or number is. If I'm saying something that's going to be made up on only numbers, then I use "Oh". The reason being, it's a shorter word that's easier to say.
For a letter-and-number code, however, I say Zero. Gods know it's hard enough to figure out which one is Zero - O or 0. Imagine it being said out loud! There's no difference between "Oh" and "Oh".

^ This. xD

[Sukurachi]

"zero" is a number.
"oh" is a letter.
discussion closed.

[Moonlost]

Depends on the situation really. I say "Oh" in casual conversation, "Zero" when I need to be clear (such as giving detail over a phone, for example)

"zero" is a number.
"oh" is a letter.
discussion closed.

Regional dialects and habits learned growing up trump proper pronuciation.
And you suddely reminded me of my old woodworks teacher there. XD

[Sukurachi]

It's actually American laziness. Sorry to be blunt.

The two are not interchangeable.
One would not say "ell, em, en, zero, pee..."
There is no reason to count "oh, one, two, three, four..."

Simply because the "numeral 0" LOOKS like the "letter O" does not mean they are the same.

A "regional dialect" is "I pahked the cah in Hahvad Yahd" (a poor imitation of a Boston accent, but still...) THAT is a "regional dialect". It is limited to a specific geographical area.

Using the alphabetic "oh" instead of the numeric "zero" is not limited to a region. It is widespread, and is used as an abbreviation for "zer-o". Linguistic laziness. There is no reason to eliminate a syllable.

Sorry about the rant, but, one of my pet peeves is the American habit of abbreviating everything: nite, lite, thru, etc...

(and yes, I know, how ironic, I end my list of abbreviations with a Latin abbreviation)

[VelkynKarma]

Woah, easy there! I didn't want to start accusations, I was just wondering XD Though, there is a difference between 'laziness' and 'being taught something,' I'd like to point out. Also, America is a big country, and not all places or people use such abbreviations or the same lingo, so be careful about generalizations.

As for me, I tend to use 'oh' out of habit myself, unless (as others have stated) there's a mix of letters and numbers or I'm trying to be very specific about giving instructions. Then I tend to automatically switch to zero.

~VelkynKarma

[Saturo]

I say zero. It sounds more badass.

[Korii]

I usually say zero, but most of that comes from working in security/loss prevention when you have to be really clear about letters/numbers to avoid any confusion.

While growing up, however, I usually said "oh".

Oh, and btw, that boston accent is pretty dead on...lol (not that MY Boston accent ever comes out....really...)

[Mockingbird]

"Oh" if I'm reading a number (like a phone number - all UK ones start with a 0, so the 01865 area code would be Oh-One-Eight-Six-Five, and literally everyone I know - virtually all English born and bred - would say it that way)

"Zero" if I'm reading something where I'm trying to be precise, or in a technical mood, or if it's numbers and letters mixed.

"Nought" if I'm in an odd mood.

[Andine]

I used to say "zero". Firstly, because you can't abbreviate it to anything close to "oh" in my language, and then because it just sounded "more correct". After a while though, saying full "zero" every time was simply impractical - so I use "oh" rather often now.

[Mr. Perfect]

I know it's a zero, but say "oh" when reading off zip codes. It's not something concise, just something that I do out of habit. If I was to wager a guess, it would be because zero is two syllables, while all other numbers, 1-9 anyhow, are single syllables.

"Nought" sounds classy. I may have to get into the habit of using that.

[Sukurachi]

it would be because zero is two syllables, while all other numbers, 1-9 anyhow, are single syllables.

except for "se-ven"

[Mr. Perfect]

Oh, right. I wonder why it's not stuck out before. It seems just as natural as the one syllable numbers.

[Cerah]

It's actually American laziness. Sorry to be blunt.

The two are not interchangeable.
One would not say "ell, em, en, zero, pee..."
There is no reason to count "oh, one, two, three, four..."

Simply because the "numeral 0" LOOKS like the "letter O" does not mean they are the same.

A "regional dialect" is "I pahked the cah in Hahvad Yahd" (a poor imitation of a Boston accent, but still...) THAT is a "regional dialect". It is limited to a specific geographical area.

Using the alphabetic "oh" instead of the numeric "zero" is not limited to a region. It is widespread, and is used as an abbreviation for "zer-o". Linguistic laziness. There is no reason to eliminate a syllable.

Sorry about the rant, but, one of my pet peeves is the American habit of abbreviating everything: nite, lite, thru, etc...

(and yes, I know, how ironic, I end my list of abbreviations with a Latin abbreviation)

And people complain when I correct their grammar, eh? (and "eh?" is an acceptable way to end a sentence, according to my regional dialect )

Unfortuately, even if you are grammatically correct, I have found that correcting people to this extent accomplishes only one thing -- it pisses them off. Remember that the proper use of English should also take into account a proper use of rhetoric. In other words, keep aware of your audience at all times, and their likely reactions. If you're discussing the use of zero verses the letter "O" in an English or Math academic setting, then Sukurachi is perfectly correct. However, in the context that Velkyn was discussing -- speaking with customers over the phone, correcting them is probably the last thing you want to do.

In your case, Velkyn, the more effective rhetorical strategy is probably to use whichever varient the customer him/herself uses when recording a zip code, only using the longer version, zero, to clarify, if the customer uses "oh". I know from the (too) many long years I've spent in retail that the "customer-is-always-right" metality often causes customers to be more rude, less rational, and more prone to stupidity than they might otherwise be (that's putting it politely), so for a relatively minor issue like this, just do what they want and keep your personal opinions on the matter to yourself, at least until you're on break and can complain about stupid customers with your co-workers.

Just for the record, I personally agree with Sukurachi's annoyance about lazy American English habits. You can also add to that list their tendency to mispronounce the last letter of the alphabet as "zee" instead of the proper "zed", their omission of the letter "u" from several words, like "colour" and "honour" (and their word processing programs marking said words as incorrect when we use the correct spelling!), and to shorten and even completely misspell other words (i.e. ""program" instead of "programme" when referring to a tv or radio show, "cheque" as "check"). The very worst, however that some of them even have the tenacity to call the entire language "American". Not all Americans do this, mind you, but those who do get on my nerves.

[Lupis]

Just for the record, I personally agree with Sukurachi's annoyance about lazy American English habits. You can also add to that list their tendency to mispronounce the last letter of the alphabet as "zee" instead of the proper "zed", their omission of the letter "u" from several words, like "colour" and "honour" (and their word processing programs marking said words as incorrect when we use the correct spelling!), and to shorten and even completely misspell other words (i.e. ""program" instead of "programme" when referring to a tv or radio show, "cheque" as "check").

That was awesome to read. Mostly because I was brought up to say all the pronunciations you disapprove of. However, I've always preferred the longer spelling. I know many people who think that "zed", for instance, is just ridiculous. They also find spellings like "Cheque" to be silly. It's all where and how you were brought up.

[VelkynKarma]

In your case, Velkyn, the more effective rhetorical strategy is probably to use whichever varient the customer him/herself uses when recording a zip code, only using the longer version, zero, to clarify, if the customer uses "oh". I know from the (too) many long years I've spent in retail that the "customer-is-always-right" metality often causes customers to be more rude, less rational, and more prone to stupidity than they might otherwise be (that's putting it politely), so for a relatively minor issue like this, just do what they want and keep your personal opinions on the matter to yourself, at least until you're on break and can complain about stupid customers with your co-workers.

Oh, I don't correct them in this regard XD I don't really need to. While it is a requirement that I ask them their zip code, it's only for survey purposes--ie "where are people coming from so we know where to put the next store." It's not going to cause severe problems if a number is mixed up. The reason I asked was mostly because, when I have customers that come in groups, a lot of times they get into heated debates regarding whether or not it should be 'zero' or 'oh.' I never thought it was such a big deal myself, kind of like how terminology changes depending on location and culture, so I was kinda surprised at how damned seriously people were taking it.

Just for the record, I personally agree with Sukurachi's annoyance about lazy American English habits. You can also add to that list their tendency to mispronounce the last letter of the alphabet as "zee" instead of the proper "zed", their omission of the letter "u" from several words, like "colour" and "honour" (and their word processing programs marking said words as incorrect when we use the correct spelling!), and to shorten and even completely misspell other words (i.e. ""program" instead of "programme" when referring to a tv or radio show, "cheque" as "check"). The very worst, however that some of them even have the tenacity to call the entire language "American". Not all Americans do this, mind you, but those who do get on my nerves.

Okay. I'll grant you that 'American' is not the proper name for a language. If anything it would be, as you said, 'American English.' Meaning a dialect, not a whole language.

The other stuff is a matter of where you're living though, I think. If you ask Americans I'm sure they'd tell you 'colour' is misspelled, and the correct spelling is 'color' for example. This isn't a recent thing; as far as I know, way back in ye olde baby-American days, when the newly formed America was trying to distance itself from British influence they started changing spellings around to try and generate some form of independence. It was REALLY important for them and their morale to distance themselves from the country they found oppressive and wanted to be separate from; they start generating their new, own culture then and there across dozens of possible categories. Three hundred years later, those ARE the spellings here, even if they aren't elsewhere. If it was an omission of sheer stupidity or ignorance I'd say by all means, be annoyed, but this isn't exactly a recent thing. It's been built into the culture for a couple centuries now.

~VelkynKarma

[Cerah]

Oh, I don't correct them in this regard XD I don't really need to. While it is a requirement that I ask them their zip code, it's only for survey purposes--ie "where are people coming from so we know where to put the next store." It's not going to cause severe problems if a number is mixed up. The reason I asked was mostly because, when I have customers that come in groups, a lot of times they get into heated debates regarding whether or not it should be 'zero' or 'oh.' I never thought it was such a big deal myself, kind of like how terminology changes depending on location and culture, so I was kinda surprised at how damned seriously people were taking it.

People can and do argue over the stupidest things. If they didn't, then lawyers would be out of business

Okay. I'll grant you that 'American' is not the proper name for a language. If anything it would be, as you said, 'American English.' Meaning a dialect, not a whole language.

The other stuff is a matter of where you're living though, I think. If you ask Americans I'm sure they'd tell you 'colour' is misspelled, and the correct spelling is 'color' for example. This isn't a recent thing; as far as I know, way back in ye olde baby-American days, when the newly formed America was trying to distance itself from British influence they started changing spellings around to try and generate some form of independence. It was REALLY important for them and their morale to distance themselves from the country they found oppressive and wanted to be separate from; they start generating their new, own culture then and there across dozens of possible categories. Three hundred years later, those ARE the spellings here, even if they aren't elsewhere. If it was an omission of sheer stupidity or ignorance I'd say by all means, be annoyed, but this isn't exactly a recent thing. It's been built into the culture for a couple centuries now.

~VelkynKarma

Where I'm living has the exact opposite historical precedent for wanting to keep our ties with England.

Something that is not usually discussed in American history textbooks, to my knowledge, is that not everyone agreed with Washington and the other revolutionaries. Quite a few people, in fact, were quite happy with the status quo of being a British colony, and were appalled when their country broke away from the motherland. These people would sometimes be treated terribly by their American neighbours, harrassed, even tortured in a form called "tar and feathering" for their beliefs in the very place where all men were supposed to be equal. However, those loyal to the British Crown found a new, welcoming home in what was then known as Upper Canada, now the southern portion of Ontario.

The United Empire Loyalists made up the majority of the first English-speaking Canadians (earlier European colonies, like those in Quebec and Acadia (now Nova Scotia and New Brunswick) were mostly French-speaking). Even after leaving now-American soil, they still had to fight to keep their British identities in the War of 1812, when the Americans tried to invade Canada as part of their "manifest destiny" (the rather foolish idea that they were meant to occupy the entire North American continent -- most Canadians and Mexicans, not to mention Native peoples, don't like this idea). Canadian and British soldiers (relatively few British soldiers, since most were occupied with Napolean and the French back in Europe), led by Major-General Sir Issac Brock, as well as native forces led by Chief Tecumseh (both of whom lost their lives during the war) fought to preserve Canadian ties with Britian and independence from America. They were also aided a great deal by Canadian heroine Laura Secord, who overhead American battleplans and travelled through the wilderness to deliver them to the British/Canadian soldiers. During the war, Canadian/British and Native forces achieved great accomplishments like capturing Detroit (we later had the good sense to give it back), and burning down a large portion of Washington DC, including the first Presidental residence. I believe that to this day, Canada is the only country to have successfully invaded American soil.

From my understanding, from talking about the matter with serveral American friends of mine, the War of 1812 is either not talked about at all in elementary history classes, or is glossed over. Americans don't like talking about the times where they lose.

/end brief Canadian history lesson.

Anyway, one of the legacies of the Loyalists is that quite a few places in Ontario are named after those in England. For example, the cities of Chatam, London, Windsor, York (the original name for Toronto), Waterloo, Cambridge, Stratford (which has its own Shakespeare Festival), the Thames and Avon Rivers. Every city has a Kings and Queens streets, and various other English street names. Another is that historically we have tried try very hard to keep Canadian English as close to British English as we can, as opposed to that of our southern neighbours, though in some cases American spellings of words are dominent (i.e. "tire" instead of "tyre"). Even though Canada is more of a multi-cultural country today, rather than just celebrating its English and French heritiage, we still tend to define ourselves as "not-American" to the rest of the world, and our language use in English continues to express that.

However, the language itself is, and will always be known as English, whether Americans (or anyone else) like it or not.

[Makoes]

Letters and numbers are different. Zero is a number, 'O'h is a letter. Say what you mean, or dont speak. The ghost of the english language is rolling in its grave. If more people bothered to speak the language properly, maybe we wouldnt have so many issues that we have now. Thats just my opinion.

[Lupis]

"manifest destiny" (the rather foolish idea that they were meant to occupy the entire North American continent -- most Canadians and Mexicans, not to mention Native peoples, don't like this idea)

Not only Canadians, Mexicans and Native peoples. I remember going over quite a bit of that history in US History, and I know Manifest Destiny made me twitch.

/Derails completely

Really, though, I think a little too big a deal is made out of the "Zero - Oh" thing. While, yes, it's not what is technically supposed to be said, it's also a very, very small problem that simply pales in comparison to many other examples of the English language being mangled. However, it's hard to say when it's really being destroyed because of the different accents out there. At least this isn't a port city in the 1500's, where around 81 variations of the same language were spoken.