Zero Versus Oh

[Moore]

I say it right when it matters, other times it doesn't really matter.

I also love how this thread some how turned into Canadians chiding Americans over the use of the English language. Languages change all the time it's only fitting that English is spoken a tad bit differently in America than in Canada or Britain given our histories.

Also I'd appreciate if you guys would stop taking jabs towards Americans it is really going to broil this thread down to each side insulting the other.

[VelkynKarma]

People can and do argue over the stupidest things. If they didn't, then lawyers would be out of business

Too true, too true XD

Where I'm living has the exact opposite historical precedent for wanting to keep our ties with England.

Exactly. It's a matter of where you have been raised, not so much "right" or "wrong."

Reading through your little history lesson (very interesting by the way!) only confirms this for me. I have no doubt whatsoever that people disagreed with the idea of breaking away from Britain. Today's events only tell us that people will disagree over virtually everything, so I am not surprised at this at all.

And furthermore, both made decisions to act based on those opinions. In the case of America, we edited our language to stress the feeling of independence since we were still a baby country and probably needed the morale boost. In the case of Canada, you guys wanted to keep those ties and kept your language as close as possible.

Several centuries down the line, we have different forms of spellings, different cultures, different national opinions on different topics. Etc, etc.

The only thing that puzzles me about the whole topic is how decisions made centuries ago can affect how a person is 'wrong' or 'right' today. Soooo...the people who lived in my country decided to create new cultural spellings almost three hundred years ago. It IS the way things are done today here. How does that make me 'wrong' spelling 'color'? The same applies to Canadians. You guys break away from American soil and keep your ties close to Britain. You go back to spelling things like 'colour,' a few centuries ago. Generations of Canadians are raised to spell it 'colour' or 'programme.' You do what you are taught. How does it make you any more right or wrong than an American spelling as they are taught?

(Manifest Destiny is a very stupid idea though. I totally agree on *THAT*)

From my understanding, from talking about the matter with serveral American friends of mine, the War of 1812 is either not talked about at all in elementary history classes, or is glossed over. Americans don't like talking about the times where they lose.

I wouldn't say that is entirely true; it largely depends on the school district. I vaguely remember covering it, although that feels so long ago now I barely remember the details XD As for other losses--I do remember we had a very UNIQUE way of studying the Vietnam 'war' since we had a Vietnamese exchange student. That was very cool, because we got to see things from both sides, which rarely happens in any history class, presumably in any country.

I'll probably end it here, I don't want to start a huge-ass debate on MY/YOUR LANGUAGE IS BETTER!!!! I'm just trying to say, maybe 'right' and 'wrong' are terms too strong for the matter, especially when you're adding that it's out of 'American laziness.' I think you could end up offending people with that (in fact, judging by the last post here, I think you already have). Especially when there is historical precedence dating a couple hundred years old on BOTH sides to indicate why the spelling is the way it is.

~VelkynKarma

[Sukurachi]

The same applies to Canadians. You guys break away from American soil and keep your ties close to Britain. You go back to spelling things like 'colour,' a few centuries ago. Generations of Canadians are raised to spell it 'colour' or 'programme.' You do what you are taught. How does it make you any more right or wrong than an American spelling as they are taught?

Wait, let's just clear something up: Canada did not "break away from American soil". We did not "go back to spelling things like 'colour'". Canada was never part of the U.S., nor did it ever have any political ties with the U.S. The U.S. tried to invade Canada and failed. We have remained neighbours, and since developed into the single largest trading partner to the U.S. (apparently, entirely unbeknownst to both former President G.W. Bush and secretary of state Condoleeza Rice, who claimed the U.K as the United State's "best friend" and the longest undefended border between two countries as that between the U.S. and Mexico).

Americans appear to have a shocking lack of knowledge about their neighbour to the north.

Even Sarah Palin, who resides on what USED to be Canadian soil!

I don't really care if Americans prefer to spell things differently. I certainly don't make a big thing out of it. I happen to prefer traditional English spelling to the "modernized" version that is so en vogue in the U.S.

For me, "zero" is a numeral, and "oh" is (other than an exclamation) a letter.

I wouldn't think of chastising someone for using "oh" while giving a phone number or other numeric information. That, quite honestly, would be silly and petty.

But it DOES make me bristle to hear (or read) dismissive attitudes toward Canada expressed by Americans.

[Cerah]

I also love how this thread some how turned into Canadians chiding Americans over the use of the English language. Languages change all the time it's only fitting that English is spoken a tad bit differently in America than in Canada or Britain given our histories.

Also I'd appreciate if you guys would stop taking jabs towards Americans it is really going to broil this thread down to each side insulting the other.

It was never my intention to insult Americans. I don't hate Americans, in fact, some of my best friends are American. I was just pointing out the historical reasons why certain particulars of our language use differ.

The only thing that puzzles me about the whole topic is how decisions made centuries ago can affect how a person is 'wrong' or 'right' today. Soooo...the people who lived in my country decided to create new cultural spellings almost three hundred years ago. It IS the way things are done today here. How does that make me 'wrong' spelling 'color'? The same applies to Canadians. You guys break away from American soil and keep your ties close to Britain. You go back to spelling things like 'colour,' a few centuries ago. Generations of Canadians are raised to spell it 'colour' or 'programme.' You do what you are taught. How does it make you any more right or wrong than an American spelling as they are taught?

The reason why I said the British and (most) Canadian spellings of words is the "right" way is simply because the language is called English. It was developed in England over hundreds of years, long before any Europeans lived in North America at all. Therefore, what is agreed upon in England as the "correct" spelling of any word is the correct spelling, with any other varients being just that -- varients. If the Oxford English dictionary (published in Oxford, UK) says that the correct spelling of "colour" is with a "u", then that is the correct spelling. Needless to say, "correct" spellings of words themselves is a relatively recent invention. I have read several copies of Elizabethan manuscripts in school, and their spelling can be quite atrocious by modern standards (i.e. an overfondness for sticking the letter "e" on the end of words, whether they needed it or not).

Once again, it comes down to a matter of rhetoric -- the context of your writing and who your audience is. If you are writing solely for an American audience, then American spellings of words are appropriate. If you're writing dialogue for cowboy character, for example, then words like "ain't" and "y'all" are not only acceptable, but you'd probably be criticized if you didn't use them. However, if your work is intended towards an international audience, on a relatively serious matter, then out of repect for the language and its country of origin, then you should use Proper Standard English, which is British English.

Wait, let's just clear something up: Canada did not "break away from American soil". We did not "go back to spelling things like 'colour'". Canada was never part of the U.S., nor did it ever have any political ties with the U.S. The U.S. tried to invade Canada and failed. We have remained neighbours, and since developed into the single largest trading partner to the U.S. (apparently, entirely unbeknownst to both former President G.W. Bush and secretary of state Condoleeza Rice, who claimed the U.K as the United State's "best friend" and the longest undefended border between two countries as that between the U.S. and Mexico).

Very true. While the United Empire Loyalists may have been from the Thirteen Colonies, they were from the Thirteen Colonies when they were just that -- colonies of Britain. No part of what is currently Canadian soil has ever been part of the United States for as long as both our countries have existed as independent political entities (or Canada's British colonial history before 1867), with one sort-of exception. Louisiana and the Mississippi Basin were once a part of the French colonies in North America, along with Quebec, but France ceased to be a major political player in NA quite a few decades before American Independence. In fact, I believe part of the reason the Thirteen Colonies began to be taxed (one of the contributing factors to the American Revolution) was in part to pay for the particular French/British war that ended with British victory on the Plains of Abraham, near Quebec City.

Americans appear to have a shocking lack of knowledge about their neighbour to the north.

Even Sarah Palin, who resides on what USED to be Canadian soil!

Actually, Alaska used to be Russian soil. Still, considering how close Alaska is to the Yukon and British Columbia compared to the rest of the United States, the Alaskan Governor should be more knowlegable about her neighbours. Although what should be and what actually are tend to be completely different things.

[Sukurachi]

Actually, Alaska used to be Russian soil. Still, considering how close Alaska is to the Yukon and British Columbia compared to the rest of the United States, the Alaskan Governor should be more knowlegable about her neighbours. Although what should be and what actually are tend to be completely different things.

I stand corrected. That's what I get for not paying attention more in those history classes, nearly 40 years ago.

[Moore]

I also love how this thread some how turned into Canadians chiding Americans over the use of the English language. Languages change all the time it's only fitting that English is spoken a tad bit differently in America than in Canada or Britain given our histories.

Also I'd appreciate if you guys would stop taking jabs towards Americans it is really going to broil this thread down to each side insulting the other.

It was never my intention to insult Americans. I don't hate Americans, in fact, some of my best friends are American. I was just pointing out the historical reasons why certain particulars of our language use differ.

Eh saying that whole "Americans don't like to talk about when they lose" thing and then someone else stating spelling is changed due to "American laziness" seemed like shots at Americans to me.

[Saturo]

The "America doesn't talk about losses" thing is true for ALL countries, has always been. And the whole bit with "American laziness" might be inappropriate, but there's a diffractive between the cultures, without a doubt. England has tea and fish served with strips, while Americans have beer and hamburgers. It only makes sense for the two to speak a little differently.

[VelkynKarma]

Wait, let's just clear something up: Canada did not "break away from American soil". We did not "go back to spelling things like 'colour'". Canada was never part of the U.S., nor did it ever have any political ties with the U.S. The U.S. tried to invade Canada and failed. We have remained neighbours, and since developed into the single largest trading partner to the U.S. (apparently, entirely unbeknownst to both former President G.W. Bush and secretary of state Condoleeza Rice, who claimed the U.K as the United State's "best friend" and the longest undefended border between two countries as that between the U.S. and Mexico).

Very true. While the United Empire Loyalists may have been from the Thirteen Colonies, they were from the Thirteen Colonies when they were just that -- colonies of Britain. No part of what is currently Canadian soil has ever been part of the United States for as long as both our countries have existed as independent political entities (or Canada's British colonial history before 1867), with one sort-of exception. Louisiana and the Mississippi Basin were once a part of the French colonies in North America, along with Quebec, but France ceased to be a major political player in NA quite a few decades before American Independence. In fact, I believe part of the reason the Thirteen Colonies began to be taxed (one of the contributing factors to the American Revolution) was in part to pay for the particular French/British war that ended with British victory on the Plains of Abraham, near Quebec City.

My apologies. I appear to have misread Cerah's earlier history lesson. That's what I get for trying to logically debate right after rolling out of bed before work XP I'm deeply sorry if I offended anybody!

~VelkynKarma

[Andine]

The "America doesn't talk about losses" thing is true for ALL countries, has always been.

Not really. Ask American about what wars America lost.
"AMERICA DIDN'T LOSE ANY WARS!"
"Um... Vietnam?"
"WE... WE WERE ADVANCING IN A DIFFERENT DIRECTION!"

Ask a Pole about wars Poland lost?
"Oh sh**, we lost World War I, World War II, even when we won, we actually lost because of those damn Ruskies..." etc. etc. And so on for about two hours.

I don't know what would a lot of other countries' citizens say, but I'm fairly certain the more whiny countries (like Poland) will not keep bullsh**ing themselves they won every war, including the ones they lost.

Ah well, zero and oh. Who cares?

[VelkynKarma]

The "America doesn't talk about losses" thing is true for ALL countries, has always been.

Not really. Ask American about what wars America lost.
"AMERICA DIDN'T LOSE ANY WARS!"
"Um... Vietnam?"
"WE... WE WERE ADVANCING IN A DIFFERENT DIRECTION!"

Ask a Pole about wars Poland lost?
"Oh sh**, we lost World War I, World War II, even when we won, we actually lost because of those damn Ruskies..." etc. etc. And so on for about two hours.

I don't know what would a lot of other countries' citizens say, but I'm fairly certain the more whiny countries (like Poland) will not keep bullsh**ing themselves they won every war, including the ones they lost.

Ah well, zero and oh. Who cares?

As far as I know, Vietnam technically wasn't a war (since war was never actually declared), so people tend to use that slippery little angle as a way to get around the whole 'clearly lost' thing. Of course that's not all Americans either; after all I'm American and I will totally admit that was not a win on our part. XD

Anyway, I was paying more attention today at work to the whole zero/oh thing and I notice something rather amusing; sometimes people will use two different pronunciations in the same code. For example, 01760 might be 'Oh-one-seven-six-zero.' Bizarre. I don't think anybody even noticed it either XD

~VelkynKarma

[Anyia]

It's actually American laziness. Sorry to be blunt.

Allow me to present three digits as counter argument:

007

Double-zero seven, hmm?

What I'm trying to say is, it's not as simple as American English vs British English.

[Moore]

The "America doesn't talk about losses" thing is true for ALL countries, has always been.

Not really. Ask American about what wars America lost.
"AMERICA DIDN'T LOSE ANY WARS!"
"Um... Vietnam?"
"WE... WE WERE ADVANCING IN A DIFFERENT DIRECTION!"

Ask a Pole about wars Poland lost?
"Oh sh**, we lost World War I, World War II, even when we won, we actually lost because of those damn Ruskies..." etc. etc. And so on for about two hours.

I don't know what would a lot of other countries' citizens say, but I'm fairly certain the more whiny countries (like Poland) will not keep bullsh**ing themselves they won every war, including the ones they lost.

Ah well, zero and oh. Who cares?

I would pay you money to walk up to a Vietnam Vet and tell them they lost the war

[Andine]

I would pay you money to walk up to a Vietnam Vet and tell them they lost the war

No thanks, I don't want to commit a suicide yet.
On the other hand, if you happen to get a polish WW2 era veteran and ask him, he will go on how screwed he was - except Poland was on the winning side (theoretically).
That's the point, not every country has that "we won every war" mentality.