Player speaks out to Dev's

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Samarachan
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Re: Player speaks out to Dev's

Unread post by Samarachan »

Do and don't agree with the player on some points. The dungeons are amazing (again, my opinion), they have cool designs and challenging fights, I actually prefer this way more than WotLK (who I grew to hate for being so easy). The player IMO didn't play much Vanilla did he :) Some of the content back then and even in TBC was close to impossible. Sunwell Pleateu is still a rather challenging raid for us at 80 and 85 now, let alone back then. Yet still people did it, still played, and still felt accomplished.

This is what's happening right now. I think WotLK spoilt players to be used to their face-on-keyboard rotation and just have things done in 5 mins. No. This is not how a game should be. For the actual WoW player who loves the game, the challenge IS the fun. Not the easyness.


However, he has made a point about the healing. I myself have a main who's a priest, but I have not been able to bring myself heal a normal let alone a heroic. It's just scary eugh. And mind you I love healing, but I just can't do it now. Not because of lack of will or gear, but because of the fear of failing. But that's just me, I'm obviously super sensitive xd.

TLDR:
Nerf dungeons? - No.

Help a bit with healing? -Maybe. A bit more mana would be great. I don't need the 100k hp as a healer do I? I'd just trade that for some more int or spirit.

That's all :)
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Re: Player speaks out to Dev's

Unread post by Sonata »

@Mearra
Nah I was more after the aspect of saying it at the start, like you said. The healer can be as mean as she/he/it wants of there is a idiot in the group who doesn't want to learn. Every healer will be mad if there is a [insert idiot word here] player who will be a burden to the healer.

Offtopic:
Mearra your name sounds just like my hunter Miarra's name, are you my little hunter coming alive or something!? xD
Gah she's mad at me for not playing her.

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Re: Player speaks out to Dev's

Unread post by Epicfail »

A couple of notes on perspective in the game right now.

a. The game just came out. Even in Wrath of the Lich King, the first step up to heroics was a bit challenging. I remember chain wiping on the first boss of heroic UK and breaking up. We were noobs in quest gear. It took a little while to be able to get everything done that was necessary to own.

b. A new expansion is a lot like being a freshman again... We all remember what it was like to go from being top dog to little man on campus. Its the same with each expansion. As the patches increase and we get further into the content, more things will open up for more people. Heroics will get easier as the availability of gear improves.

c. Blizz stated early and often that the people who get the gear first are the ones who consistantly knock over all the anthills first, whether they are just good at what they do or know the angles of the fights and put the most effort in. Thats the 2200+ crowd. That's the ones currently all in epics. There's nothing wrong with the best getting the cool things first.

My prediction - Heroics will be MUCH more accessible by the first and second content patches. People will know better what to expect and gear will make up for the shortcomings of skill some of us have. There will generally be two levels of geared players: the ones in heroic gear and the ones in charity (justice, valor, etc) "epics". Things will become easier for everyone as the expansion continues.

TLDR: Strap in, boys and girls and stow your issues away in that dark little corner of your soul nobody knows about. We've only just begun...
I don't really feel like this is so much the "Post-Modern" era as much as its the "Pre-Zombie-Apocalpse" era. I consider myself more of a forward thinking guy and an era that just won't die is just as feasible as a coming era, where the dead come back.
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Re: Player speaks out to Dev's

Unread post by Cerah »

I have to agree with the original poster's point, to a certain degree.

I only started playing WoW halfway through WotLK. By the time I reached 80, I was continously kicked out of raids (though not so much heroics) for being undergeared, and for being BM specced. The worst part was, I didn't even know what GS meant -- I thought it was my dps rating -- and nobody would tell me when I asked. They'd just call me a noob, laugh, and kick me. I eventually had to Google the term -- this is not how a "friendly" gaming community should act, IMO.

So, I went on the badge-grinding treadmill, hindered because at first I thought Frost and the next-lower level badges were completely interchangable, so I traded in some of my Frost emblems for more of the others, getting Tier 9 gear when I should have been getting Tier 10. Again, as a new player who had no idea about the tier system, and nobody was willing to tell me, how was I to know any different? I finally had good enough gear to do ICC in non-heroic, about a month before Cataclysm. Since I work and am attending university, I don't have all the time in the world to grind, so it takes me a while. Imagine my shock when the gear I had spent so much time and effort grinding for, had been bitched at for, was worse than Cata quest greens and random drops. I mean, the pvp honoured rep gear I had got from BC lasted me at least a couple levels into WotLK content -- I was expecting the same thing in Cata.

The very last thing I wanted to do after that disappointment was to get back on the badge-grinding treadmill. As of right now, my gear isn't even good enough to do Cata heroics -- and I don't care. I'll get up there eventually -- I'm in no rush to devote my gaming life to gear that's going to be out of date come the next content patch. Besides, the Hunter Tier 11 Murloc gear is ugly as sin. If I'm going to grind for something, it's going to be for things that don't expire, like mounts and small pets, and finding new combat pets to add to my stables. I'll continue to do regular dungeons until I gear up through random drops and Twilight Highlands quest rewards. If I go on any raids, it will be for older content that I missed out on before, where gear isn't a concern. Funny enough, more people on my server want to do older content now. Maybe they're in the same boat as me.

That said, I am enjoying the new dungeon content on regular. I like the Vortex Pinnacle dungeon especially, and I appreciate that I'm actually given opportunities to learn how to use CC -- I hardly touched my traps throughout all of Wrath; it's kind of cool to feel needed with my ice trap in Cata. I feel like I'm actually a valuable member of the group, as opposed to in WotLK, when I felt like a Hunter was the least-wanted dsp class in group situations. I'm also really enjoying other improvements Cata has brought to the game, especially the new stables (25 pets ftw!), but also the storylines in the new zones and the revamped older zones, making me feel like I'm actually making a difference in Azeroth (even if I'm not, technically). I like the effects of steamlining the talent trees, but I think the Hunter ones can be improved even more, especially Beast Mastery. I'd like them to make taming exotics the BM level 10 ability (no QQ-ing over it being overpowered -- Demo warlocks and Ice Mages get their specc-defining pets off the bat), and giving us a kind of pet zerg rush for our end tree ability. Right now, there's really no point for new hunters to be BM until level 70. Also, it kind of sucks that talents aren't as customizational as they used to be. My bf used to have a half Holy, half Disipline Priest, and he can't do that anymore. This lack of customization has turned my co-worker off WoW entirely. He's taken up a new MMORPG, called Rift instead, and if Rift proves to have a decent Hunter-type class ... well, I just might have to give it a try myself.

So yes, while the OP is crying, I can see where he's coming from. Then again, nobody says he *has* to get back on the gear-grinding treadmill right away if he doesn't want to. Why not just enjoy the game for what it is -- a game? If you think the dungeons are too hard on heroic, don't do them on heroic. If you're not geared enough to do PuG raids, join a decent, friendly guild who won't cry about your gear level, and raid with them, or just take your time gearing up until you can do them. There's plenty of other things to enjoy about this game. No, it's not a job, nor should it be, but fun is what you make of it.

I wonder if Ghostcrawler gave him a pony after this? ;)

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Adam-Savage
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Re: Player speaks out to Dev's

Unread post by Adam-Savage »

Sonata wrote:And a healer saying that "Don't make mistakes or I will not heal you" ain't nice
Well in his defensive and from how I know him I'm pretty sure he would cut you some slack. What he means if your always doing to same thing over and over again. "stop stepping in the fire" and he keeps doing it sorta thing. Another example is if your pulling agro off the tank all the time.
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Re: Player speaks out to Dev's

Unread post by Agravaine »

Epicfail's right. We're a month and a half into Cataclysm. I was still in quest and rep gear at that point in Wrath, and had pretty much resigned myself to grinding honor for epixx.

Blah blah blah entitlement blah blah blah respect blah blah blah. OP hasn't earned either.

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Re: Player speaks out to Dev's

Unread post by Kalliope »

Golden wrote:
Saturo wrote:Whinepost I say. Seems all they want is to bring back the easymode WOTLK.
I have to disagree with you there. Is there nothing between the state the game is in now and Wrath?

Leveling a pure dps class without tank and healer friends is a pain, because you HAVE to take the 40 minute queue. I love my main and would like to play her more, do some heroics, finish those rep grinds, but having to wait for nearly an hour to get to a group that will promptly break before the first boss is NOT my definition of fun.
This is a very fair point and a true weakness in the system that has nothing to do with the difficulty of the instances. Not everyone can get together a raid group every week to gear up and progress from the easy bosses to the harder ones and earn the valor points that way. I guess the theory is that players who can't do it don't need that gear, but then what are the groupless players supposed to do, wait until the next raid instance comes out and there's new badge gear? It's not necessarily their fault that they can't find nine other people who are capable of handling the content, especially with the emphasis on intelligence rather than just straight gear.

The OP was crying over a lot more than that, but this is one point that I do agree with.

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Re: Player speaks out to Dev's

Unread post by Cozzene »

I agree entirely. I have a healer and a dps. If you are too hard to heal, if one trash pack causes me to go oom because the tank is constantly going under 50%, I will leave. If we wipe 2 - 3 times n a boss because the mechanics are too difficult for the group at hand, I will leave. I refuse to run without at least 2 guildies so we can have majority.

Was beta tested with premades? Premades in the new tier of gear? Obviously, they are going to do well. I'm not sure where everyone is getting their "We already overgear it" comments from; most people in these heroics have 333 gear with 1 or 2 325s and a handful of the odd 346s thrown in. More players are begging for nerf to the dungeons, or a buff to the classes, especially the healers. This can't be ignored for the sake of the other 20% of players who feel the game is "too easy". It obviously isn't if groups are still wiping, and breaking up because of the wipes. Blizzard has listened to very minimal feedback. The blue responding with "Well be nice and maybe we'll listen" to me says they don't want to hear it. They designed the game X way and how dare we dislike it.
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Aquillian
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Re: Player speaks out to Dev's

Unread post by Aquillian »

Personally I love that heroics and raids are incredibly difficult now, and difficult to pug. That's what I used to think the term 'heroic' meant, and what I expected raids to be. When I want easy going fun, I run normals. When I want to put serious effort and time in, I get some guildies together and run a heroic -- plus we have our weekly raid nights (Magmaw and Omnotron down on week two! sorry, proud moment XD)

I dunno. I just can't get behind the complaints about the difficulty level. To me it's basically saying 'hard mode is too hard.' If you dislike it, why not avoid hard mode? I dislike the hard modes of some games, so I don't ever play them. *shrug* And my main is a healer/tank, but I do also play my hunter frequently if anyone wonders. I mostly solo and PVP with the hunter :)

I just really, really hope they leave the challenge in. It felt *good* the first time my guildies and I got the third boss in H. Grim Batol down, even though we wiped relentlessly the first times we tried and had to skip him. It was a triumph, rather than a given, expected thing. I'm totally fine with not always coming out successful -- it just makes the successes all that much happier.

My thoughts :3
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Re: Player speaks out to Dev's

Unread post by Mearra »

We are still early on! If they also handed everything to everyone easily, it makes the game pointless for those who actually put in the effort to get the top gear by organising a 10 man etc. So they either have to have different gear available for different play styles or different means to get the gear (usually a tier behind which they did do in previous content and they will do again for the easier to attain badges. There is only one tier available currently, you will not get handed that tier without some hard work, nor should you be.)

40 Minute Queues have to do with the classes and roles people chose to play. Blizz already tried to make our lives easier by putting together all the battlegrounds for instance queues, other than opening the pool you have to pick from, there's really not much they can do unless you want the game so easy a baby could play it. Instances are a training grounds before raids (This becomes VERY apparent in this content when you are doing Grim Batol and Valiona comes down). If no one has to learn to dodge bad things in an instance, then they will stand in bad things in the raid...and you have more wipes because one guy didn't grasp a mechanic that he should already be aware of.

Generally, if people don't want to tank because they'd rather flex Epeen on dps charts and have no responsibility otherwise...well....there isn't much Blizz can do to change their minds. They can make instances easier (they already have said they will be nerfing some of the more complicated fights, so that is beating a dead horse) which may remove the fear some people have and more may try to tank/heal but that will only be some. Regardless, even if the instances were a heck of a lot easier, the majority of players would still want to dps, you'll still have a queue just because of the ratio of dps/tank/healer player population. Even in Wrath, DPS queues were ~30-40 minutes. Perfect time to farm :)

Dual Spec and the LFG tool are obvious things they've made to make our lives easier finding groups, but once again, Blizzard can't stop someone from making a double DPS spec'd toon. It's not like they are really ignoring us all. And if you've been reading the patch notes, they have been slowly adding some buffs to healing classes (Other than nerfing pallies because those buggers are OP) and to simplify some of the instance content. If you were not around for the days of 'pre lfg tool', then I see why you aren't aware of this massive improvement to how things used to be where you had to do all the work YOURSELF to find people.

It's an MMO, it's meant for people to be social, due to that, it will always be easier to play with friends. They want to encourage guilds to work together, if the guild leveling/perk/achievement system didn't make it obvious enough....I'm saying it right now "They want you to make friends with your guildies!" Don't like your guild mates? You may want to find a new guild.

Here's the magical part which may help in solving some of our own issues, let us state some general facts:
-Playing with friends makes instances more fun and go more smoothly (assuming it's not your friend that is causing all the wipes)
-Blizzard is trying to encourage people to instance with friends/members of their own guild (Go Go Guild Runs!)
-CC IS GOOD!!!!!!!
-Playing with friends usually gives people a more sense of confidence and willingness to try things
-Long queue times suck, but that is based off of player decisions

Now here's the magic......
Lets say your friend plays a dps warrior...but is afraid to tank pugs because they can be frustrating when no one listens.
Your shadow priest friend is afraid to heal instances in pugs in case they mess up and the party dies.
You..well you're a hunter, you can't do anything about this other than bring your backup turtle in case crap hits the fan.
There's a new member in your guild that plays some dps class.

Hmm we have four people....that could make a guild run. Guild XP???? Hmmmmmmmmmmmgood things may come from this.

The four of you could get to know eachother more, try to get the warrior tank gear, the SP healing gear...oh oh and try to do a REGULAR INSTANCE FIRST with them in those roles. Because of the rest of the party knows them, less chance of failure. You all understanding everyones learning...so there's no "OMG YOU SUCK!!" It'll be "Oh perhaps use this...we could cc that, make the pull easier? Hmmm I'll take care of this interrupt there."
Next thing you know, you've got a nicely geared tank and healer at your disposal! Shocking!
They've now gained some confidence...you can go to heroics with them now...even better!
Rinse repeat with other friends.
You have now made the queue better for you and others.
(Don't forget, next round of alt, you get to tank or heal ;p. Don't cringe, you might like it!
Have I been there/done that, HECK yes. Myself and my friends rotated the tanking/healing responsibilities.)

OOoo that reminds me, if your tank/healer is having a rough time. Remember, they 'manned up' to take that position.
Unless they are being jerks, be nice, try to make their jobs easier and that is one less tank or healer that will give up doing so permanently just because DPS are 'jackasses'.


Yes Sonata...you need to play your hunter more -_-, go do it, now!
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Re: Player speaks out to Dev's

Unread post by Miyon »

Loethlin wrote:That's why noone did The Oculus and that's why they refuse to accept the fact that you need to think more in randoms now.
Oculus was my favourite dungeon. And it still is. I never understood why people didn't like it, it was so easy and it was fast.

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Re: Player speaks out to Dev's

Unread post by Lisaara »

Seems a few here (not naming names) are forgetting that it's rude to force someone to play something they don't like. I, for one, hate healing and/or tanking. I've done them. I hate doing it. Not just cause of idiots...just cause I don't find it enjoyable. I prefer to DPS. Always have, always will. I'm just gonna remind some that people will also play what they like most. It's rude and won't make you very many friends if you force people to tank/heal when they don't want to. :/

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Re: Player speaks out to Dev's

Unread post by Kalliope »

I don't think anyone's said that, Taluwen. The players who were being considered were those who *might have already* filled those roles if they weren't apprehensive about dealing with pugs.

It is very important for players who choose to play hybrid classes to understand that they can make things much easier for themselves and their friends if they try out the utility roles, but no one can force them to do it.

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Re: Player speaks out to Dev's

Unread post by Lisaara »

Kalliope wrote:I don't think anyone's said that, Taluwen. The players who were being considered were those who *might have already* filled those roles if they weren't apprehensive about dealing with pugs.

It is very important for players who choose to play hybrid classes to understand that they can make things much easier for themselves and their friends if they try out the utility roles, but no one can force them to do it.
While they didnt directly say it, it was very heavily implied, imho.

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Re: Player speaks out to Dev's

Unread post by Mearra »

I'm fairly certain I didn't say 'force them all RAWR' :P, nor was I implying it. I'm sorry if my wording may have allowed any such assumptions.
The only time I said the word force was in regards to the fact that Blizzard cannot force people to tank which would be among the only ways to make the queues a lot shorter.

I said it was in regards to people who considered it but were afraid of it for whatever reason.
I have seen it go in many ways:
-DPS afraid of tanking/healing because they fear they will be bad at it or they know they get frustrated with bad players (and bad players are so much more apparent when you're the one that has to constantly taunt off them or heal them to make up for their mistakes).
-Healers/Tanks afraid to do the opposite role for fear of being weak at it
-Healers/Tanks afraid to DPS because they worry they won't be able to pull the numbers (one of my closest friends in WoW is a resto shaman, she does not like DPSing as Enhancement in front of specific friend because he is AMAZING dps at everything, and DPSing infront of him makes her nervous).
*Note: None of the above is saying they hate that role and would never want to try it.

Helping them play a class that can fulfill the role they are a bit afraid to attempt at is not forcing them, because in the cases I was discussing...the people were honestly curious to try it out and wanting to, they were just nervous due to numerous external reasons which you can easily fix and give them a hand.

You can help someone learn how to dps/tank/heal well.
You can go to instances with them to help them build their confidence while they practice.
You can watch them love their new role, take pride in it and appreciate you for the time you took. (Whether you actually helped them learn the mechanics, or just were the patient friend while they learned things on their own)
*All of the above can also apply to ourselves.

I'm not just spouting here, I've been there, I've done that. I've been the fearful person that needed a bit of a push to step forward. I've also been the person helping others take that step. There was no forcing, you can't force people to do anything in a game in which if they really don't want to, they can just log off. Nor do I condone forceful behaviour :)

Edited:Shortened and less personal ^^, we all know I type novels >.<
Last edited by Mearra on Thu Jan 27, 2011 8:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Player speaks out to Dev's

Unread post by Mania »

I wrote a long response and then realized I was replying to the wrong thread. *sigh*

But on this thread: There's a lot of potential for this kind of topic to get personal. I don't think it has yet - and that's a testament to this community. But I would remind everyone in this thread to keep the diversity of our community in mind before you get too emphatic about your points.

As a complete and utter aside: I no longer read Ghostcrawler's forum posts unless I absolutely have to, and I've never read his blog posts. It's likely that I consistently misread his intentions, but I often read his words as if they were intended to be disrespectful.
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Re: Player speaks out to Dev's

Unread post by Kalliope »

Taluwen wrote:
Kalliope wrote:I don't think anyone's said that, Taluwen. The players who were being considered were those who *might have already* filled those roles if they weren't apprehensive about dealing with pugs.

It is very important for players who choose to play hybrid classes to understand that they can make things much easier for themselves and their friends if they try out the utility roles, but no one can force them to do it.
While they didnt directly say it, it was very heavily implied, imho.
I think you're reading too much into it. The wording seemed pretty clear to me.

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Re: Player speaks out to Dev's

Unread post by SpiritBinder »

Oh My Goodness ! ! ! LOOK ! ! ! !

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Re: Player speaks out to Dev's

Unread post by erwil »

Saturo wrote:When I run with my guild we have quick, easy runs without wipes. The dungeons aren't hard, it's people making them hard.

''RAWR! I ARE HEALER! I PUNCH SHEEP WITH LIGHTNING! RAWR!''
^_^ Above.
My fiancee mentioned this topic to me earlier today. I sort of see the point of possibly toning down the ENTRY level raids, but I still view it as more of an whine post in the end.
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Re: Player speaks out to Dev's

Unread post by Lisaara »

@Mania: I noted that too.

@Kalli: It's not what was said, but how its said. :) Seems something to be learned.

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