Religion

[Mozag]

Mozag, sorry I didn't get what you were trying to express from that part of your post.
(the opium of the people part)

And truthfully, I hear that quote used out of context (all the time) to "prove" that even Karl Marx knew religion was "good" and had "value."

Not to worry, I must have been a bit unclear in my musings. I often am since I write what pops into my head.

So odd that people would use that quote in that sense! Unless you're a drug addict, how could you ever consider that opium is "good" or has "value"! I guess some people will go to any lengths to prove their point, even twist the words of those who are famous for having had a very negative opinion of religion!

Oh well.

[GormanGhaste]

If there is a Heaven and a Christian God, then whoops, I suppose I'll be meeting a lot of you South of there.

"Heaven for the climate, Hell for the company" --Mark Twain

[Anyia]

So odd that people would use that quote in that sense! Unless you're a drug addict, how could you ever consider that opium is "good" or has "value"!

To a person in sufficient pain, the opium would surely be a blessing, not a curse. Do I think it would be better to address the cause of the pain instead? Of course, but when that is not a viable option, who are we to deny them temporary relief?

[Mozag]

So odd that people would use that quote in that sense! Unless you're a drug addict, how could you ever consider that opium is "good" or has "value"!

To a person in sufficient pain, the opium would surely be a blessing, not a curse. Do I think it would be better to address the cause of the pain instead? Of course, but when that is not a viable option, who are we to deny them temporary relief?

A great way of putting it, Anyia! Food for thought indeed.

And since I didn't mention it in my first, or subsequent posts: I am all for letting people believe what they like. I may not have faith, but kudos to those that do, whatever that faith is, as long as believing in it doesn't hurt anyone else. I've just ended up discussing the Marx quote now, whereas I really didn't want to end up spitting on people with a religion. I have friends who believe (not necessarily in the Judeo-Christian God, though there are those too) strongly, and I respect that, just as I expect to be respected for my lack of faith.

Live and let live!

[Moore]

So odd that people would use that quote in that sense! Unless you're a drug addict, how could you ever consider that opium is "good" or has "value"!

To a person in sufficient pain, the opium would surely be a blessing, not a curse. Do I think it would be better to address the cause of the pain instead? Of course, but when that is not a viable option, who are we to deny them temporary relief?

Temporary relief for one should not come at the cost of suffering of others.

[Royi]

So odd that people would use that quote in that sense! Unless you're a drug addict, how could you ever consider that opium is "good" or has "value"!

To a person in sufficient pain, the opium would surely be a blessing, not a curse. Do I think it would be better to address the cause of the pain instead? Of course, but when that is not a viable option, who are we to deny them temporary relief?

A great way of putting it, Anyia! Food for thought indeed.

And since I didn't mention it in my first, or subsequent posts: I am all for letting people believe what they like. I may not have faith, but kudos to those that do, whatever that faith is, as long as believing in it doesn't hurt anyone else. I've just ended up discussing the Marx quote now, whereas I really didn't want to end up spitting on people with a religion. I have friends who believe (not necessarily in the Judeo-Christian God, though there are those too) strongly, and I respect that, just as I expect to be respected for my lack of faith.

Live and let live!

Ignorance is Bliss???

[Cozzene]

Well not really as "caveman" can mean alot of things its a term for any primitive humaniod. It does not fix Creation vs Evolution at all. Allso saying we evolved from only 2 people does not work in eviolution as you would need more than 2 people to make a race. Thats more intelligent design than evolution.

How does saying "Adam and Eve were primitive humanoids" not fix it? lol, If they are the first 2 humans EVER, they're the very definition of primitive don't ya think? It was mostly a joke anyway.
And you do not need more than 2 people, it would simply make you the product of very intense inbreeding.

[cowmuflage]

Well inbreeding would stop after a few generations as they would die out so yes you do really need more than 2 people. It was a pretty bad joke.

[Aleu]

This might be a bit of derailing, but wasn't there a huge volcano eruption years ago that nearly caused the extinction of our species? I think I read somewhere that the reason we're not as diverse (Due to having our gene pools reduced severely) as we could of been is because of that event.

[Moore]

I could have sworn the catholic church's stance was that Adam and Eve didn't actually exist o.o

[VelkynKarma]

So odd that people would use that quote in that sense! Unless you're a drug addict, how could you ever consider that opium is "good" or has "value"!

To a person in sufficient pain, the opium would surely be a blessing, not a curse. Do I think it would be better to address the cause of the pain instead? Of course, but when that is not a viable option, who are we to deny them temporary relief?

Temporary relief for one should not come at the cost of suffering of others.

But that largely depends on who you're talking about too. Sure, there are extremists and fundamentalists who take their religions very seriously, to the point of using it as justification to hunt/kill/injure/conquer others. I don't remember where I heard it, but I do remember reading a quote somewhere that basically said a god/gods are on all sides of the war. And in that context, yes, there is no justification for that 'relief' to cause the suffering of others.

But that isn't everybody. Don't forget that. A single mom who is struggling to support her kids might be considered 'weak' for not just accepting her situation according to the 'fooling yourself' concept that some people have listed here. But hey, if believing in a higher power...God, or spirits, or some other being stronger than herself...gives her the strength to continue on when she really just wants to give up, then who is to argue that's a BAD thing? Or a person who's been having trouble getting a job, or a stressed teenager dealing with major problems, or any other number of things. The possible scenarios are endless. Religion and belief build an inner strength in people too...I wouldn't call it a 'drug' so much as a 'support.'

As for me, I'm religious. I was raised Roman Catholic and used to go to church every day. Unfortunately I've since come to distrust organized religion. After the whole Cardinal Law fiasco where I live, the Church basically tried to seize the church I went to to sell off in order to pay off those they had wronged. They picked our church because we were fairly liberal and it was located on a very rich plot of land...y'know, instead of ousting the Cardinal from his big fancy house that according to religious teachings he shouldn't have been living in to begin with. They didn't get it (the community held a sit-in basically) but after that the entire situation started to degrade and people forgot what they were fighting for. I went off to college not too long after, and never actively went to search out a community to join since.

Despite that, I still consider myself Christian....a very liberal Christian, but a Christian nonetheless. I don't attend Church anymore, because in the end, Church really didn't do anything for me other than waste a few hours of my time each week. I am not anti-homosexual (in fact I started a Gay-Straight Alliance in my school and several of my family members are gay). But I DO believe in God and Jesus Christ. I pray to Him every night before I go to bed (indeed, I can't actually fall asleep until I do). I thank Him for the good things that happened to me today, for giving me the strength to get through some tough times, etc etc. Okay, it sounds a little corny, but honestly? It really does help. I've been through a LOT of tough situations in the past four years, and feeling like SOMEBODY was there for me, even when a lot of other people weren't, really gave me the strength to get through it all.

I also try to live by basic Christian doctrine. Not the strict, Bible-bending stuff. You can pull quotes anywhere out of the Bible to support any belief or scenario you want. I guarantee you I could go through the Bible and find quotes to both support and condemn pretty much any topic you could think up. But I do try to be kindly to people, help them out when I can just because it's right, support my family and friends, and just generally be a good person. I'm not perfect at it. I'm only human, and God knows that. But I try to be good, I don't go out of my way to intentionally hurt people, and if religion has given me nothing else, it has given me an acceptable code of morals. That's fine by me.

Anyway. Just my addition to the discussion.

~VelkynKarma

[Moore]

I think people should believe in THEMSELVES more than a "god" someone who quits drugs because they "found god" never give any credit to themselves, and thus fail to realize their own abilities to change their situation. They will just continually sit around and wait for things to happen rather than to take charge and make any kind of effort on their own. I firmly believe religion and believing in an afterlife takes effort away from making the real world we live in better. And in the end churches only further service those that believe, hence missionaries "I'll help you, but read my bible". I'm sorry but if I'm going to help someone I'll get right in there and do it just for the sake of doing it rather than force exposure to my beliefs in exchange for help.

[Turgus]

VelkynKarma wrote:
A single mom who is struggling to support her kids might be considered 'weak' for not just accepting her situation according to the 'fooling yourself' concept that some people have listed here. But hey, if believing in a higher power...God, or spirits, or some other being stronger than herself...gives her the strength to continue on when she really just wants to give up, then who is to argue that's a BAD thing? Or a person who's been having trouble getting a job, or a stressed teenager dealing with major problems, or any other number of things. The possible scenarios are endless. Religion and belief build an inner strength in people too...I wouldn't call it a 'drug' so much as a 'support.'

That is your belief, and you are welcome to it, but, as I stated above, I do not respect this view because I feel it diminishes us all.

If one believes that they can get "supernatural" assistance then that is their burden to carry, and by believing it they are just diminishing and minimize their own ability and the capacity of others to overcome and cope with the obstacles they face themselves.

Everyone can believe what they want to, but the second that it comes out into the public square expect it to be critiqued and criticized like everything else.

VelkynKarma wrote:
I also try to live by basic Christian doctrine.

This is one of the most difficult statements for me to understand.

Just what does that mean?

What statitutes and laws written in the Bible do you follow, and how do you choose which ones to follow?
(Just a few example: Do you eat pork or shellfish? Wear clothes with mixed fabric?)

If it is just being a good person, you don't need the Bible for that.
Long before it was written there were better moral teachings out there. (Hammurabi's Code, etc)
It is something that is innate in most of us and is not unique to humans. (look at evolution is social organism)

And I can and have argued (quite successfully even against Pastors) that the Bible actually commands many actions that would be considered immoral by todays standards and as such would be a very bad basis for a moral standard.
Each of them has conceded this point.


Basically it boils down to this, you can believe whatever you want, but as soon as someone brings it up in a public setting, try to get some pseudo-science taught in school, or attempts to proselytize, expect it to be taken on and criticised.


Beliefs are not and will never be immune from criticism.

[VelkynKarma]

That is your belief, and you are welcome to it, but, as I stated above, I do not respect this view because I feel it diminishes us all.

If one believes that they can get "supernatural" assistance then that is their burden to carry, and by believing it they are just diminishing and minimize their own ability and the capacity of others to overcome and cope with the obstacles they face themselves.

Everyone can believe what they want to, but the second that it comes out into the public square expect it to be critiqued and criticized like everything else.

Um.

Okay, look. I'm probably opening a HUGE can of worms here. Understand that I AM IN NO WAY SHAPE OR FORM ATTEMPTING TO START A FLAME WAR, but I gotta be honest here, Turgus, I'm a bit puzzled and a little offended at your response here. Everyone here is sharing their personal opinions on their religious beliefs. We are all mature enough here to state our beliefs without bashing others'. I don't agree with you. You don't agree with me. This is absolutely, 100% fine. I am in NO WAY trying to convert you to my beliefs, and we disagree on how people should handle their lives, etc. That's great. The problem that's really offending me with this statement?

Everyone can believe what they want to, but the second that it comes out into the public square expect it to be critiqued and criticized like everything else.

We're not critiquing and criticizing each others' opinions in this thread. This thread is to list beliefs. Not challenge, degrade, or call out other peoples' beliefs because we have different ones. I'm a little hurt here since I shared my personal religious belief, the one I have come to myself FOR myself after twenty two years of living, with this nice, polite, friendly forum assuming that I COULD because nobody is going to rip me apart because I'm Christian, only to be told that it's time to critique that belief and deconstruct it.

I'm sorry I'm a minority in this community, but it still doesn't give you the right to 'critique' my personal religious belief in religion, especially on this friendly sharing thread. Maybe you didn't intend for it to sound elitist or whatever, but I'm sorry, that's kinda how it came across to me. "You can believe that, BUT" doesn't exactly come across as...friendly. My apologies if this isn't the case.

VelkynKarma wrote:
I also try to live by basic Christian doctrine.

This is one of the most difficult statements for me to understand.

Just what does that mean?

Perhaps I was a bit vague. I'll try and answer your questions to the best of my ability.

What statitutes and laws written in the Bible do you follow, and how do you choose which ones to follow?
(Just a few example: Do you eat pork or shellfish? Wear clothes with mixed fabric?)

Actually I can't eat Shellfish at all, I'm allergic to it XD As for the Bible, if you read my previous post again, that might help answer a few questions. The Bible is a man-made artifact. It has great allegories and stories to teach lessons, but all the strict rules and regulations in it....I dunno. I have trouble buying into those. Again, it comes back to my problem with ORGANIZED religion specifically. Which leads down to the next question...

If it is just being a good person, you don't need the Bible for that.
Long before it was written there were better moral teachings out there. (Hammurabi's Code, etc)
It is something that is innate in most of us and is not unique to humans. (look at evolution is social organism)

You're probably right. I highly doubt the Bible, Christianity, etc, are alone responsible for the introduction of the "be a good person" mentality. There are plenty of other places and beliefs and religions that also stress the same idea. Being a good person is good. At the same time, I wasn't a part of any of those. I was raised as a Roman Catholic. I learned all these 'good person' rules through that religion: how to be a good person, to keep trying to do good things, to not harm people, etc etc. To me, when you boil away the 'organized' part of the religion, this is what Christianity means to me, personally. Just try to be good, help people out, etc etc. This might not be the way everybody else sees it, but if this thread alone (not to mention hundreds of other religion stories) has taught me anything, it's that nobody quite views religion the same way.

And I can and have argued (quite successfully even against Pastors) that the Bible actually commands many actions that would be considered immoral by todays standards and as such would be a very bad basis for a moral standard.
Each of them has conceded this point.

Again, if you re-read my earlier post, you'll note my lack of strict adherence to the Bible. As I said before, the Bible is a man-made collection of stories, rules, regulations, etc, the key being MAN-made. Men aren't perfect. The Bible can be extremely contradictory in places, and yes, it can encourage violent things as well as peace. You can pick-and-choose parts of the Bible as you like to create Pro and Con arguments for virtually any subject, and if you've cut and pasted correctly it'll probably sound completely effective out of context. I'm not talking about a fundamentalist following of the Bible, here.

Basically it boils down to this, you can believe whatever you want, but as soon as someone brings it up in a public setting, try to get some pseudo-science taught in school, or attempts to proselytize, expect it to be taken on and criticised.
Beliefs are not and will never be immune from criticism.

And again....except in this thread. Toe-to-toe debates in a legitimate, heavily researched, mature setting on religion vs science or whatever else pleases you...it happens. It's perfectly fine and genuinely promises some interesting points if both sides are willing to participate and be grown-ups about it. I wouldn't make a thread for it here, personally (too easy to start a flame war, or really offend somebody). But it is a perfectly viable topic of discussion.

But you know what? This isn't the thread for that. This thread was just a poll to see who has what beliefs. That's it. I'll even quote the OP on it:

No the thread really is just because I was curious about petopias userbase and nothing more, it wasn't really intended to be a "share your experience" thread

All I did was share my personal belief. Like the thread says. Like everybody else did. I'm a little hurt and offended with the "You can believe what you want, but ultimately I still have the right to knock on your belief, which doesn't make sense" attitude here. You'll notice I don't agree with your personal opinion on religion, but never once in this response did I turn around and throw it in your face, or try to 'convert' you to my beliefs.

Sorry if I'm out of line, Mods. I tried to be mature as possible with my response, but if you still feel it's out of line guys, feel free to delete it. As for me, I'm officially done with this thread. I think I just learned a lesson about sharing personal things in the future. *sigh*

~VelkynKarma

[Turgus]

First off VelkynKarma I was not insulting you.

Maybe I went a little overboard and I could have probably used some "softer" language, I can admit that.
(I ask things in a certain way because it gets straight to the point, I hate vague questions and answers)

In essence, I intended to do two things with my post.

1. To rebutt your previous post about the comfort of faith. (Your post was a rebuttal to a previous post, so this was not out of line)

2. To get a clarification of your beliefs. (Because there are so many "Christians" out there with such a wide range of beliefs; I figured going straight to the question, what is it that you believe and why do you believe it would be the quickest way to get a cogent answer)


I am sorry if you were offended by the questions, the tone, or the language used as that was not the intent.

[Anyia]

That is your belief, and you are welcome to it, but, as I stated above, I do not respect this view because I feel it diminishes us all.

If one believes that they can get "supernatural" assistance then that is their burden to carry, and by believing it they are just diminishing and minimize their own ability and the capacity of others to overcome and cope with the obstacles they face themselves.

Well. From a purely personal point of view I would like everyone to let go of the "safety blanket" and face up to reality and work on improving that rather than what I see as largely fantasy. That said, I recognize that this is a very selfish/elitist attitude, and there is also the possibility (slim as it might be from my point of view) that I am wrong. Given that, it seems much fairer and sensible to adopt a "live and let live" approach. For the most part I have a good life and have the spare strength to do without higher powers in my life, but not everyone is so fortunate and I shouldn't be rude enough to assume so. It doesn't necessarily make me happy to concede that, but that's the entire point of my "belief" system - accept reality even if it doesn't make me happy!

[Tulune]

It's all very simple folks, no one KNOWS. Either way.

[Royi]

It's all very simple folks, no one KNOWS. Either way.

Agreed. Might as well lock thread now. You solved it

[Moonlost]

Urgh, I've been debating for the past few weeks whether or not to post in this thread. My beliefs are pretty personal to me, especially as I've only really just come to terms as to what they are within the past two or so years. The unpleasantness of the last few posts also serves as a deterrant. So, I guess we should consider this to be bringing the thread back on topic. Or something like that.

I'm a Agnostic Theist of a sorts. I don't really worship any deity in particular or subscribe to any religious structure. But I do believe that there are entities that we could call "gods" existing somewhere in the universe. Why? Because there is no certain proof denying the existence of such things and the multiverse is vast enough to allow for them.
Simplistic I know, but true none the less.
With that said, there's a little more to my beliefs than just that. I am fascinated by the universe. I can stare up into the starry sky and just let my mind go as I ponder these beautiful balls of radiation, along with the celestial bodies that orbit around some of them. The universe is filled with so many wonderful and amazing things and I take every opportunity I can to find out how it works. I try my best to keep up with current theories thrown out, even though a lot of it goes over my head, not being a physicist and all.
I know a lot of people feel that seeing Earth from a galactic perspective is a cold way to view our planet. We are, after all, a single blue dot amongst billions. I personally find that to be, in some strange way, inspiring. Everything we know to exist, for all we know, only exists upon this single point in space. That just makes everything on that single, blue dot to be all the more precious.

Hah, even now I find myself fumbling for the words to describe what I believe in. I should probably leave this off before I start driveling on even more. Instead, let me leave you with a much better presented version of my mindset; We Are All Connected (The "lyrics" are contained within the video notes if you're having a bit of a problem understanding the digitized voices.)

[GormanGhaste]

I am fascinated by the universe. I can stare up into the starry sky and just let my mind go as I ponder these beautiful balls of radiation, along with the celestial bodies that orbit around some of them. The universe is filled with so many wonderful and amazing things and I take every opportunity I can to find out how it works. I try my best to keep up with current theories thrown out, even though a lot of it goes over my head, not being a physicist and all.
I know a lot of people feel that seeing Earth from a galactic perspective is a cold way to view our planet. We are, after all, a single blue dot amongst billions. I personally find that to be, in some strange way, inspiring. Everything we know to exist, for all we know, only exists upon this single point in space. That just makes everything on that single, blue dot to be all the more precious.

let me leave you with a much better presented version of my mindset; We Are All Connected

Thanks for linking that video. I'm fond of it, and it's been a while since I've seen it. We're all light.