Sweet Bippy, GS is getting out of hand

[Ryai]

If, like me and you didn't know/don't know what GS means it basically means Gear Score. But lately it's just getting out of hand on my mains server. People are demanding 5k gear score for all sorts of things. First it was just achievements, now it's gearscore and achievements, and when I point out that well if you can be boosted for achievements you could be boosted for gearscore so why do you keep sounding so elitist?

But this is for ICC pugs so I can kind of understand, but it seems, people are thinking you must now have uuber gearscore for everything as I just saw a DPS offering himself for the weekly raid and he was all 5k+ gs dps lf [weekly raid]. And I actually paused and thought my god.

That's just Naxx!

I'm not trying to say gearscore is bad, just, I think people are just getting a bit to happy with that addon and fail to realize that gear doesn't really equal skill, even when I've heard tales of ebayers and etc. Hell a few weeks ago I hard of someone who had a DK.

That had gemmed for Spell Power. And he had gear good enough to get into a raid :|

[Rarako]

Yah, the boys an I have been going over the gear score thing quite a bit recently too. GS, while helpful at times (the time we were getting people together for a Naxx run and a DK wanted to join in. Then he got into the instance wearing nothing but 68-78 greens save two pieces of DK starting armor [ring and bracers I think]) people have become way to reliant on it as an end-all-be-all, imo. My server is small and has a large idiot population (I was informed by more than three people setting up Valentine boss groups that my gear score wasn't high enough. I was a fresh dinged 80) and GS is the what matters the most, people don't link achieves anymore or even ask for them, and very rarely does inspecting ones gear or talenting happen unless you can see it coming a mile away (my SB or Devilsaur) or someone just can not do their tasks (oh, I'm sorry mister warrior but why are you tanking as arms in battle stance?). Truth be heard I was fishing in Dal one time, this tauren and I got to taking and he started telling me about how a friend of his collected armor with high GS's (not necessarily meant for his class, but equip-able when no one else could use them) and would ware it when he was looking to join a raid just so he could get in, then switch into his actual gear in the instance and no one was ever the wiser.

Achieves were a pretty good gauge on skill, but one could always be carried. Inspecting ones gear in the respect that it was right for their spec (ie avoiding hunters with strength, and intell as the primary attributes) was a good way to go about it but people had to be up on what stats were currently important for every class and speck. The way one talented was a good gauge but in the same breath I have seen cookie-cutter specked toons who were horrible (they didn't know how to play their speck) and less than normally specked folks heal thought some things that most healing duos would be hard pressed to pull off (a half and half Holy/Disc priest that was my old guilds main healer for the longest time back in BC because you didn't need anyone else with him around) same goes for tanks and dps.

All in all the beast way to gauge a player is just to play with them, do an random heroic or daylies and just see how they play and react to certain happenings (like how often they stand in fire) that is the best way to judge someone.

[VelkynKarma]

I'm still a bit confused on this whole gear score thing. What is it even based off of? Item level?

I'm just not sure I really understand the importance of it. I do see people asking for this a little more often, but I'll be honest when I say I'm not entirely sure what the point is. A character of any class will be strong because of the player's SKILL just as much as their GEAR. Gear to improve stats certainly helps, but it's not the end-all be-all.

I remember running an instance with another rogue on my own rogue once--he was decked out in full Naxx gear (back when Naxx was the next big thing) and was Mut spec just like me, but I consistently did more damage than he did in my blues and rep-earned epics just because I knew the rotations and kept my SnD, Rupture, and poison stacks up. His gear score probably would have been higher if I'm understanding this right..but I knew what I was doing.

Shouldn't knowledge of class be more important than gear?

~VelkynKarma

[Saturo]

It assigns points based on the stats and procs an item gives, adds your gems, recent versions subtract points if the item is bad for your spec/class, and it then calculates an average. I hate it.

[Vephriel]

Yeah, people take it far too seriously and now there's this whole mindset that Gear Score is the essential measuring factor. -.-

I can definitely see its merit in some situations. Getting a rough idea of what you're capable for, as an example, can be useful.

I've used the site WoW Heroes to see where I stand in certain things. You can look up your character there and it will give you a Gearscore and also recommendations for enchant/gem upgrades, also a 'difficulty bar' for dungeons and raids.
http://www.wow-heroes.com/

Still, that's all I use it for. The confusing thing to me is there's different types of Gear Scores. Some people will go by an addon one, others will go by the WoW Heroes one, and I think there's more. They're all different. x_x

[Ryai]

Oh god there's more than one? I thought there was just the Addon.

Sweet bippy.

At anyrate yeah I use GS sometimes to see what I should start aiming for, dungeon wise as well the LFG and LFR claim I could do like Naxx and VoA [25 man] but I doubt it. I've barely got Caim out of his scrub 80 gear and into 200-245 level :|

Tbh this is also starting to unsettle me because before it was 'minimum dps' then it was 'achiev' then min dps/achiev. Next came GS. Then GS and Achieve.

I'm just scared what's going to come after, that topples Gearscore.

[Rhyela]

I do believe it is helpful when not overused. For example, it's probably not best to take someone into ICC25 with Ulduar 10 gear. However, I'm seeing it ALL THE TIME on my server. The frakkin' "Love is in the Air" bosses evidently need a GS of 5,000+ to accomplish (even though we did it with 4 people in sub-par gear). It really is getting ridiculous. Not only that, now you have to have achievements for everything you do. It's like...how can I get the achievement when no one will invite me to anything because I don't have an achievement? Not that I'm raiding or anything, but it's just a bit ridiculous. When did this game become full of such elitists? It's one thing to want to succeed but demanding the very best gear for something as stupid as a Naxx weekly is.....asinine.

[Jakkra]

People on my server go by the addon GS.

I like to use it as a rough judge of what kind of gear people have/what their general dps should be.

However, I've seen loads of people with 5k GS's that have crap dps, as opposed to someone around like 4.5k who is doing loads better than them. Gear will increase your dps if you know how to play your class... so yeah, skill has a lot to do with it.

I mostly see it for ICC raid pugs, but people seem to use it as an end all, which is just dumb.

So, I'm not opposed to it, I just don't think it should dictate whether or not you get into something, without actually looking at the gear/player in question.

[Sharilar]

The reason people go by it is it requires no thought. You've just had Bill and Bob whisper you for your ICC pug. Neither is in a guild you recognize, and you've never played with either before. How do you know which one is better, when you've got 8/23 other people breathing down your neck to start the instance? Go for the one with higher gear, and hope.

The people asking for it for things like the holiday bosses and Naxx though either just want to be carried through without having to do any work, or just want as fast an in-and-out as possible, like the 15-minute Heroic runs.

That said, my GM put together a last-minute third-string alts ICC10 run last night. He took a 4.5k GS mage, and I had a 4.4kGS DK, and everyone else was around 5k. We downed the first wing, with the only trouble spot being Deathwhisper.(Because our melee was a DK and a enhance shammy. Go fig.) Disclaimer: I did get the 251 two-hander off the first boss, which I switched to immediately(cause I was using a ilevel 200 sword) and was at 4.7-something the rest of the instance. And I still hit 4.5k DPS on Saurfang.

[Anansi]

I tend to view people asking for, say 5k GS for raids, to be using GS as a tool to try and give them an air of authority and knowledge, when in fact they possess neither. Relying on GS is a hugely irresponsible method for determining player quality. If you are serious enough to want to lead a raid, then take the time to check out your applicants' Armoury profiles for achievements and gear, and make a decision based on your best knowledge and experience.

Don't just parrot "5K GS needed" because that's what every other clueless idiot does.

[Ryai]

I'm not saying GS isn't viable. I mean if it is used 'correctly' it can be a valuable tool, just like achievements can be. But people seem to be wanting to do them more and more as excuses to not have to explain anything to people or get out of actually you know having to work for it. Which seems to be a rampant problem horde side on Hellscream. Oh, getting the Black War Bear actually requires effort and you to die a few times, can't have that!

And the misuse is now making it seem everyone needs 5k for everything. I've been seeing it crop up for VoA, ToC NORM, and a few people advertising it for Naxx norm like in my post.

It's just turning into one of those uuuurg things. Like, when people complain about the new LFG tool because People are getting handed free epics and back in my day people had to work for them and. Yes someone actually went on a triad[?] in general on a realm an alt of mine is on. He ignored me when I said; So you'd rather go back to waiting 3 hours to 3 days for a group for one dungeon...?.

Just aurg that You can't please some people saying cropping up and then ofc there's the elitists and just raurg.

[FlightofthePhoenix]

I'll be honest, I don't understand gearscore. I'm working on getting to 80 for the first time. If I ever used it though, it would be as a basic measure of how I compare. Like if my DPS was lacking, I could look at my gearscore as one of the things to consider. However, it seems like it doesn't care about stats. Technically, couldn't I have my hunter all dressed up to be a mage and still have a great gearscore?

I mostly use a combination of the forums, trial and error, WoW Amory, and advice in game to improve myself. I never plan on being a serious raider. I hope people don't use gearscore to block me outright. The expectations are so high now I feel like I have to pull at least 6k DPS as soon as I hit 80.

[Epicfail]

Alright, hopefully I can add something worth while to this...

GS is measured by item level on Wow-heroes (the one I use) and doesn't really differentiate between pvp/pve sets, doesn't count in achieves and doesn't say anything about skill. When referenced for raid invites, its all about the best "potential" addition to your raid without knowing anything else about them. This happens alot of my server when joining PUG raids, which happens alot.

There are some things you should know about the tiers of gear (those just hitting 80) that really matter when raiding. If you have level 200 gear mostly (from heroics), Naxx/OS is about the highest raid you should join. Its nothing personal, but the amount of healing/damage you are capable of in that gear is significantly diminished compared to someone in higher level gear. If you are REALLY thirsty, you grab a big cup. You might not fill the cup completely, but you go for the cup that CAN hold more. It IS ENTIRELY possible for someone in lower gear to come into a raid and outshine people with higher gear scores and I've personally proven that time and again across several characters. Even so, if I had had at that time the gear score I do now, I'd have done that much more healing/dps to support my raid.

Now, what I take from people using gearscore. The person saying they want to join a raid and have GS 5k+ are advertising that they are a superior raid member compared to someone who has just hit 80 who has a much lower gearscore. Its not an elitist thing, its an advertising "I run faster than most, put me on the team coach!" ploy that works most of the time. Its like putting on your resume you graduated from Harvard. Granted, your major was basketweaving and you're a total slacker, but HR sees the "Harvard" first and may move you to the "potential job applicant" pile. Someone who graduated from Billybob's academy of finer arts hits the shredder, even though he's totally qualified and would totally run circles around the Harvard Grad. This leads me to my lesson of the day, kids: You cannot escape Real Life or Society by hiding in WoW.

The person who says they only want GS 5k+ people to join their raid, and the raid or group isn't exactly facing a difficult raid, its all for an easy run. A raid leader who only wants 5k+ GS for Naxx wants the boss to die quick and be done with them. You'll usually find these folks doing the weekly raid quests more than not. It doesn't mean the raid will be successful. It does mean that they are trying to get qualified people (remember the harvard grad analogy) to join so that they WILL have a chance of being successful. If they don't have a Vent channel and say that "this is too easy to need vent", especially Uld, TOC and ICC raids, leave now before you get disappointed.

If you are trying to join an ICC raid and your gear is less than they are asking for, its because they are going up against a significant challenge and would rather take someone half decked out in ICC gear over someone in heroic/naxx gear. Now, just about anyone can run heroics till they have a good set of 200/219 gear and then do the new 5-mans to get some good 232 gear. From there, your gear score should be high enough to get into most pug raids up to ICC10 rep farming. Getting a better GS isn't hard. You don't take a level 25 into Scarlet Monestary do you? Level up some more and then try.

Let it be said that the best way to raid is finding a raiding guild on your server willing to raid the content you want to and by doing so you should avoid most GS requirements of PUGs. There are a lot of good casual guilds up and about right now working on TOC and ICC. Guilds that raid even once or twice a week are better than joining several fail-raid pugs, getting saved up to faction champs and disbanding. As for holiday bosses, I think its pretty obvious that anyone with a GS req is tired of "bad players" holding them back and just wants a good group to down them. Again, GS doesn't mean "good players", but it does mean potentially more useful player. Take of it what you will.

[Ryai]

No Epicfail I don't think you're getting the point. We understand what GS is supposed to be for- but unfortunately this really isn't the case. Why is that? I asked, a while back, in trade. What should be the base hp, unbuffed mind you, before I even attempt to think of possibly tanking a raid, 10 man. Most people tell me, 30k unbuffed. Then someone tells me they tanked Sarth with 23k.

Then there's also the fact that I am a casual and by casual I mean I don't really have the mind or attention span to join a raiding guild and there are no casual raiding guilds on my server afaik. The only ones advertising are for end game content- or forgoing that, next to ingame content and they are not accepting pally dps, hunter dps or warlock dps. So yeah once again that is out.

What you're not getting is before people used to ask for DPS and that was fine. I had recount I could understand it a bit I could get it to work and my solo dps was 2k. Big whoop.

But now? I have almost 5k from bleeding heroics, and I ran gearscore on Aria, my drood friend. She had hit 5k. Just from heroics. If we could hit 5k without ever really having been in a raid or having raid gear as emblem loot doesn't really count as being in a raid now. Just about anyone can hit 5k and not really have worked or understood what they're doing.

GS is being turned into the Flavor of the Month Easy Button.

[Saturo]

Now I just need to finish my new addon, the bane of GS.
It randomly assigns either 0 or 1 to players. Only players with 1 may be in the same groups as you. Players with 0 will be automatically kicked and ignored. The addon also automatically spams "u suck" to them.

That's gnomish ingenuity at it's finest!

[VelkynKarma]

Now I just need to finish my new addon, the bane of GS.
It randomly assigns either 0 or 1 to players. Only players with 1 may be in the same groups as you. Players with 0 will be automatically kicked and ignored. The addon also automatically spams "u suck" to them.

That's gnomish ingenuity at it's finest!

Hells yes! I'll download it!

~VelkynKarma

[Ungoro]

Yeah, same problem...At very first people didn't care about raid achievements, but if you had epic then you would just link that and get an invite. Then people didn't care much for epic achieve and went onto raid achieves. Then when i finally get my account back after 2 months of being hacked i log in to find that 99% raids on my server are relying on gearscore.

I posted this same story on the what's grinding your gears thread, but i got a VoA10 invite and got instantly kicked, i asked the raid lader why and he said my gearscore is too low, i instantly replied with lol and left it at that. Around 10-15 mins later he's just finishing off finding raid members and i decide to inspect him. It turns out his gearscore that's only 300 higher than mine stands for nothing, as i've been in a successful VoA25 and got myself two achieves from it, while he hasn't been in a VoA25 (not a successful anyway).

But then sometimes you will find a pug that will accept you even on the raid achievement. Heck, sometimes you might find a raid that won't care about achievements and/or gearscore...I reckon Blizzard should delete raid achievements and make sure there isn't an addon that is able to add up gearscore, as it's really not fair for people who want to start raiding, but can't start raiding because getting in a good raiding guild is difficult because of gearscore, and finding a pug is difficult because of gearscore.

Getting back to that VoA25 i mentioned earlier, we only done two bosses (Toravon and the fire guy) and all but 3 people were under my gearscore, the other 21 people had over 5k gearscore. At the end i looked at the dps meter, and i was 8th. It's not bad, but then when you consider how many people are dps'ing in this raid, the majority are just or well over 5k gearscore. It just goes to show that gearscore isn't everything...It's just an epic troll.

[Epicfail]

What you're not getting is before people used to ask for DPS and that was fine. I had recount I could understand it a bit I could get it to work and my solo dps was 2k. Big whoop

uh.. just to have epics and just "being" dps is fine when its Naxx. When its the last bosses in VoA, TOC and ICC, you gotta step up. Those aren't "casual - non-raider" bosses.

With all due respect, I think your problems with gearscore stem more from the fact you weren't included in a raid because of it. More so than whether its a good way to weed out the undergeared from joining raids.

To use your HP analogy, can you tank Sarth with 30k hp? Yep. Can you do it with 23k hp? With a phenominal healer, you sure can. What if the healer's kinda new and doesn't have a "click to heal" mod? yeah, GL with that! I never said GS was an exact science. I said it gave you good "potential" players when you want an easy way to invite people. And its catching on by most people who want exactly that.

The RL you mentioned wanted people with better gear than himself to down the last boss in VoA? Good for him. Hope it works out for him. Move along. If another and another and another won't let you in because you are missing gear, start Qing for the new ICC 5-mans for better gear. Thats pretty "casual". At least you HAVE options. Back in TBC, you just plain didn't raid if everyone's doing BT and Hyjal and you're barely in Heroic/Kara gear.

Long of the short of it is, if you want to raid, better yourself beyond your own idea of "what's best". The puggers have their own ideas of what it takes to raid, be it achieves or GS or whatever have you, so if you want to join them in those raids, you gotta step up and start gearing out in the ways you can. That, or there's ranting in a forum, but I'd rather relax and just enjoy the game.

Free country. Do what you want.

[Kalliope]

If another and another and another won't let you in because you are missing gear, start Qing for the new ICC 5-mans for better gear.

This is why I posted my guide. Having a bunch of 232 loot is going to help shut up the GS addicts, regardless of whether the gear is actually NEEDED for some of the stuff you want to run.

[Ryai]

uh.. just to have epics and just "being" dps is fine when its Naxx. When its the last bosses in VoA, TOC and ICC, you gotta step up. Those aren't "casual - non-raider" bosses.

Uh actually. VoA bosses are meant to be PuGable. And I've done them before Ryai had a gearscore even near 5k. Somewhere on 3k. Maybe pushing 4k. Maybe the newest boss requires 5k but the first three? No. That's just silly.

With all due respect, I think your problems with gearscore stem more from the fact you weren't included in a raid because of it. More so than whether its a good way to weed out the undergeared from joining raids.

Um lol? I don't think you understand. Ryai, according to GS has nealy 5k gs. So it's not about being undergeared or overgeared. And tbh I couldn't give a rats patootie about being in a raid or not. Hell the raids I've been in are either others like me who were always excluded because of 'lol no achievements' and people expecting you to remember every single god damn boss fight tactics :| On the rare time we get nice raiders who put up with our brainlessness, explain the basics and we just wing it and have fun.

To use your HP analogy, can you tank Sarth with 30k hp? Yep. Can you do it with 23k hp? With a phenominal healer, you sure can.

We meant Unbuffed base HP not 23k buffed up. I should have clarified that.

Long of the short of it is, if you want to raid, better yourself beyond your own idea of "what's best". The puggers have their own ideas of what it takes to raid, be it achieves or GS or whatever have you, so if you want to join them in those raids, you gotta step up and start gearing out in the ways you can. That, or there's ranting in a forum, but I'd rather relax and just enjoy the game.

Look I don't think you get what we mean and I don't think you're trying to grasp what we're getting at. I have no problem if people want 'lolscore' for gear or expect it to show skill or expect achievement + GS to show skill, cause I have both GS and achievements and let me tell you, I don't have skill.

What I am trying to get at is GS is starting to be used for everything. Everywhere. It's being turned from a helpful guide and aid into something like, Must have achieve for Naxx 10 NORM. OR, even BEFORE that, people asking for 4+k dps for Naxx Norm. Hell saw someone demand 6k for it.

And you also don't understand that, it's not just a few people on my server, it's starting to turn into atleast 80-90% of the population, because they think it's an auto win button now.