What would people say to... (BM Exotic Redesign)

[IRobertus]

I would love to be able to use my "Exotic" pets in any spec. I never liked the whole cant use 13 pets in my stable depending on my spec, seems very counter productive.

[Cozzene]

BM 51 talent point is extremely gimmicky; we have a base ability, to tame pets, and BM simply offers the ability to tame more. Apparently, I can't wave my hands in a chimera's face when I'm MM. Why not? Is it some secret handshake you forget how to do in another spec? Mindsprocket is right on, on what I'm talking about;

All hunters have the same pets but only BM hunters can use them to their full potential. But unlike the Exotics tag it wouldn't cause the same problems of limited pet options vs. shinies.

[Acherontia]

BM 51 talent point is extremely gimmicky; we have a base ability, to tame pets, and BM simply offers the ability to tame more. Apparently, I can't wave my hands in a chimera's face when I'm MM. Why not? Is it some secret handshake you forget how to do in another spec? Mindsprocket is right on, on what I'm talking about;

All hunters have the same pets but only BM hunters can use them to their full potential. But unlike the Exotics tag it wouldn't cause the same problems of limited pet options vs. shinies.

That is, put much better & more briefly, exactly what I was driving at. Being able to use all the pets in any spec is nice, yet BM would still get the special skills *and* not be locked into particular pets (which they are if you want to be competetive, at least in PvP).

Just wanted to comment on this also:

if we go by what your saying, then ALL classes with exclusive things to their spec would have a 'Gimmick'. If everyone gets to use exotics, then we should all have Chimaera and Aimed Shot.

Buffed Kill Command is BM's signature shot already. The other specs have it but it isn't anywhere near as strong.

[Cozzene]

It's actually a huge waste of focus to use KC as any other spec =( But the thing is, "Oh look I can use a shiny spirit beast!" is hardly comparable to getting a hard hitting ability like Chimera Shot; it's borderline being a vanity talent. The extra ability that accompanies the exotic beast is the only thing making it more beneficial to a non exotic (the circumstance that saves it from being vanity only), and exactly why I agree that the exotic ability itself, not the pet, should be what the 51 talent point addresses.

A secondary ability given to ALL pets seems a lot more viable than
a] Being forced to use one exotic beast to get the desired secondary skill; missing Kings/MotW and don't like shale spiders? Tough. Need Bloodlust and hate core hounds? Outta luck.
b] Being forced into one spec to use certain pets

That just reads like a lose/lose.

[Lisaara]

BM 51 talent point is extremely gimmicky; we have a base ability, to tame pets, and BM simply offers the ability to tame more. Apparently, I can't wave my hands in a chimera's face when I'm MM. Why not? Is it some secret handshake you forget how to do in another spec? Mindsprocket is right on, on what I'm talking about;

All hunters have the same pets but only BM hunters can use them to their full potential. But unlike the Exotics tag it wouldn't cause the same problems of limited pet options vs. shinies.

No. It's because a marksman would be shot and killed on sight by an enemy if they were hiding in the bushes trying not to be seen and a marksman wouldnt know how to control such a beast.

I think a lot of those who support changing BM are really missing the point. BM hunters are NOT locked into always using exotics. We dont have people holding a gun to our heads saying we must use them. Let's try to stop using that as a reason or excuse, okay? Also this should also be made clear...KC isn't the signature for BM....its Intimidate. So our signature really......sucks. Blizzard gave use exotics via lore and to make up for the fact our ability we get as BM isnt exactly grand.

[TygerDarkstorm]

I think a lot of those who support changing BM are really missing the point. BM hunters are NOT locked into always using exotics. We dont have people holding a gun to our heads saying we must use them. Let's try to stop using that as a reason or excuse, okay? Also this should also be made clear...KC isn't the signature for BM....its Intimidate. So our signature really......sucks. Blizzard gave use exotics via lore and to make up for the fact our ability we get as BM isnt exactly grand.

I agree with this. NO ONE is forcing you to use an exotic pet over a regular pet except yourself. More than ever hunters can use whatever bloody pet they want; you just get a little something extra if you happen to use an exotic.

When it comes to raiding, it's very rare to get a group without a priest, paladin, druid, death knight, shaman, mage, or warrior (that covers all the big buffs; kings, fort, bloodlust/heroism, and battle shout).

For PvP; there's a good chance that if you and your partner are skilled, it doesn't matter what pet you bring. Also, Blizzard has made a blue post saying they don't balance arena around 2v2 so any arguments brought up for it are moot.

[Lisaara]

I think a lot of those who support changing BM are really missing the point. BM hunters are NOT locked into always using exotics. We dont have people holding a gun to our heads saying we must use them. Let's try to stop using that as a reason or excuse, okay? Also this should also be made clear...KC isn't the signature for BM....its Intimidate. So our signature really......sucks. Blizzard gave use exotics via lore and to make up for the fact our ability we get as BM isnt exactly grand.

I agree with this. NO ONE is forcing you to use an exotic pet over a regular pet except yourself. More than ever hunters can use whatever bloody pet they want; you just get a little something extra if you happen to use an exotic.

When it comes to raiding, it's very rare to get a group without a priest, paladin, druid, death knight, shaman, mage, or warrior (that covers all the big buffs; kings, fort, bloodlust/heroism, and battle shout).

For PvP; there's a good chance that if you and your partner are skilled, it doesn't matter what pet you bring. Also, Blizzard has made a blue post saying they don't balance arena around 2v2 so any arguments brought up for it are moot.

Yes, this, thank you. You explained it a bit better than I. It's just getting really irritating when I'm seeing those who support it are saying KC is our signature and we HAVE to use exotics as BM. It's definitely not the case. If you're gonna support a change, support it for the right and valid reasons. The 'shot' we get as BM is merely Intimidate. All specs can use KC, meaning it's not a BM only shot/ability. And like said above, unless your guild/raid is missing a buff or full of asshats, you're not forced to use an exotic pet.

[Amayah]

I think that sounds pretty awesome, and I would love to play with my King krush and not hafta be BM for it, though I don't mind clicking a button to switch my spec and whatnot when I'm soloing.

Anyway, I have a bit of an idea. If that were to happen; Instead of just letting BM spec hunters get a second ability for their pet, why not change the last ability in the tree to allow.. Two pets out at the same time. Now before you say "ew no", let me explain a bit..

For one, the DPS would be halfed between them. So even though there would be two, they'd be doing the DPS of one.
I do realize this would be a bit OP with the pet buffs, but chances are there is a way to make it so when you have two out, only one buff from a pet is active (Of your choosing, or the first one you summon out. Or it could even work off of Acherontia's idea, kind of; one pet would have a buff, and the other pet would have the other one)

I gave this idea for the fact that.. BM would then still be unique to the other specs, but in a slightly different way.

Also I figure that Blizz could implement something along the lines of only allowing a certain secondary ability to go to certain pets, or just "gray it out" in a way. I mean; if they can already make the pet trees require a certain thing before being able to learn it (Dive, and the ability right under it, for example) then they could do something like that - A lesser ability of say.. web wrap (The pet abilities are slipping my mind at the moment; only one I could think of.. xD I apologize) would be one of the "required" things for "BOK" or "Fort".. or something along those lines.

Once again I apologize if I kinda rambled on.. And; if I misworded things, it's six in the morning here. Just wanted to add my little bits of ideas before I headed off.

Good Gods, no. I don't WANT to have to micro-manage two pets in a raid or a heroic. There's moments as it is where I lose track of where exactly my wolf is - and on a fight like Theralion and Valiona, that often means he's standing over on the side, out of melee range, not attacking for some odd reason due to the two dragons switching places. If that issue were to be doubled...ay yi yi. Add to that our odd pet pathing issues and the tendency certain pets (foxes, tallstriders, carrion birds) have to go dashing off to kill critters...and a BM hunter with two pets out would be run out of groups or raids on a rail, with cries of "OMFG HUNTARD, CONTROL YOUR F'ING PETS!" echoing after us. And the enhancement shaman spirit wolves would like to talk to you about the thought that two pets out would somehow make beast masters "unique."

As it stands, all three hunter specs are pretty close to balanced. Yeah, there's one or two little things that could stand fixing - such as air phases absolutely destroying a beast master's DPS by taking Kill Command out of use - but we got things pretty good right now. We're not shackled to exotics by any means...but damn, it feels good for them to be wanted or needed from time to time. I was tickled to death last week when our shaman wasn't able to make raid, and someone said "But now we don't have any bloodlust!" and I said "We can have, if you want." And they said "oh right - we have Tahlian!" So I put up my current pet and got out Houston, my core hound, and off we went. Normally, I bring my wolf out...and that's just a matter of personal convenience, on the off-chance I need to switch to Survival. Valiant does just as well as my devilsaur should I choose to use Clayburn. I don't feel in any way restricted by my pets. In point of fact, my exotics make me feel a lot more versatile. They're great...but they're not necessary by any stretch. Let's not mess up the good thing we currently have going, okay?

Ah Tahlian, I see your point. I honestly wasn't thinking of it from a PvP, or Raiding/heroic standpoint. I've played my little blood elf hunter too much, to where I was thinking of it from more of a.. Soloing/roleplay point. xD Butyeah, I do see how that would be a bit of a "meh".

Anyway, if anything; the second pet would follow the first, and the follow, stay, attack commands would wire in to both of them; they just have their own seperate attacks.

And speaking of spirit wolves; yes in a sense it is not unique if you compare it just like that. But, spirit wolves are only one skin, and last for only a time. I'm speaking of being able to tame and keep out two different pets, until you dismiss 'em or whatever. Also, spirit wolves can't be named, or have their own talent trees.

I mean, by the way of you saying that wouldn't make BM unique; then the hunter class as a whole isn't unique.. cause of the fact there is other classes that can have pets, but attack completely differently (Though they can't name theirs) or am I wrong? ;P

[Aquillian]

My reason for saying no would have to be more of a lore-ish reason. Exotics are beasts that most hunters cannot tame because they're on the fringes of what one might consider a tamable beast. Beast Mastery hunters go above and beyond what most hunters settle for in beast taming, their training enabling them to tame even those 'exotic' beasts.

*Disclaimer: I am not implying in any way, shape, or form that BM is better, this is just my interpretation of the 'IC' reasoning.

SV is my favorite spec, and I would /love/ to use my spirit beasts as SV, but... I agree with this. This is how I've thought of beast mastery since they added exotics.

[Tahlian]

Ah Tahlian, I see your point. I honestly wasn't thinking of it from a PvP, or Raiding/heroic standpoint. I've played my little blood elf hunter too much, to where I was thinking of it from more of a.. Soloing/roleplay point. xD Butyeah, I do see how that would be a bit of a "meh".

Anyway, if anything; the second pet would follow the first, and the follow, stay, attack commands would wire in to both of them; they just have their own seperate attacks.

And speaking of spirit wolves; yes in a sense it is not unique if you compare it just like that. But, spirit wolves are only one skin, and last for only a time. I'm speaking of being able to tame and keep out two different pets, until you dismiss 'em or whatever. Also, spirit wolves can't be named, or have their own talent trees.

I mean, by the way of you saying that wouldn't make BM unique; then the hunter class as a whole isn't unique.. cause of the fact there is other classes that can have pets, but attack completely differently (Though they can't name theirs) or am I wrong? ;P

Lore-wise (if you really want to bring out that card), I had always seen beast masters as having as deeper, more intense bond with their pets, hence their ability to release the beast within themselves when their pet goes into a rage. Much like a police or military dog handler, they are most effective when working closely with one pet at a time. To have two pets out would either be ridiculously overpowered, resulting in a nerf of Wrath of the Lich King proportions and sending us back to the dark ages of BM only being good for hanging out in Orgrimmar/Stormwind with "vanity" combat pets, or would dilute the power of a beast master's pets, making them less effective.

And again, I don't think anyone has adequately proved to me that exotic pets NEED alteration. Yeah, our 31-point talent may seem a little colorless when put up next to Chimera Shot or something like...but I do believe appearances can be deceiving. I'm more concerned about the lackluster Intimidation special we get as a tree freebie than I am about the Beast Mastery talent needing fixing.

[TygerDarkstorm]

Personally, I think we should be celebrating the success Blizzard has brought hunters with this expansion. We are free, more than ever, to bring whatever pet we wanting, meaning that many of our favorite pets are good for more than vanity pets. Also, for the first time in WoW's history the three specs are more balanced than ever.

[Lisaara]

Personally, I think we should be celebrating the success Blizzard has brought hunters with this expansion. We are free, more than ever, to bring whatever pet we wanting, meaning that many of our favorite pets are good for more than vanity pets. Also, for the first time in WoW's history the three specs are more balanced than ever.

^ This

Let's not unravel the lovely balance we finally got.

[Amayah]

Lore-wise (if you really want to bring out that card), I had always seen beast masters as having as deeper, more intense bond with their pets, hence their ability to release the beast within themselves when their pet goes into a rage. Much like a police or military dog handler, they are most effective when working closely with one pet at a time. To have two pets out would either be ridiculously overpowered, resulting in a nerf of Wrath of the Lich King proportions and sending us back to the dark ages of BM only being good for hanging out in Orgrimmar/Stormwind with "vanity" combat pets, or would dilute the power of a beast master's pets, making them less effective.

And again, I don't think anyone has adequately proved to me that exotic pets NEED alteration. Yeah, our 31-point talent may seem a little colorless when put up next to Chimera Shot or something like...but I do believe appearances can be deceiving. I'm more concerned about the lackluster Intimidation special we get as a tree freebie than I am about the Beast Mastery talent needing fixing.

What card? I wasn't bringing out any card, least that I know of. I was simply asking a question, because you were saying that having two pets would make them not unique, due to the fact enh shamans have spirit wolves. I wasn't meaning to come off rude, or completely dismissing your valid points - I said so in the first bit of my post.

All I was saying, was that I wasn't thinking at it from any other point other then being cosmetic. I used to play SWG, and I was a beast tamer before they took out that certain class, I had fun having two pets (Though I will admit, they were the same. )

And anyway, lore-wise, blizzard has changed lore to fit in most things. I do see your point of needing to "bond" with a pet; though irl I have a five yearold dog, and a kitten, I've bonded with them all the same. I figured a seasoned beast would teach a younger one, much like in many packs, or herds of animals.

And also, if you look back to my first post of it; I said the DPS between them would be split, so they would simply be doing the DPS of one (I doubt that could truly be considered OP, unless people get confused by more then one animal biting their face off ). Making them less effective? I don't know on that point, it's possible. Anyway, It would only be truly for cosmetic, in a way.

Anyway, as I said earlier; I apologize if I came off rude with our first exchange. You just seem defensive/rude right now, least what I am reading from you; but it's probably just misunderstanding. n_n Sorry! I'll keep my thoughts/later on ideas to myself from now on.

[Amayah]

Personally, I think we should be celebrating the success Blizzard has brought hunters with this expansion. We are free, more than ever, to bring whatever pet we wanting, meaning that many of our favorite pets are good for more than vanity pets. Also, for the first time in WoW's history the three specs are more balanced than ever.

I do agree there; I like being able to actually bring a pet I like to a raid/heroic, no matter my current spec, instead of the "Must have soandso pet, or can't go" thing we dealt with in WotLK, BC, and even Vanilla. And yeah, the specs are balanced for the most part. n_n

Edit; I severely apologize for the double post.. I didn't think of editing my first one to add in this bit of agreement. Sorry..

[Cozzene]

You're BM. You want the MOST out of your pet? You HAVE TO use exotic. No Kings/Mark, no off-heals, no Bloodlust, no -healing debuff. You want to come into the group with less than what is possible? That's up to you. But BM being the only spec allowed to use certain beasts is cheap and lazy. It's an awful 31 talent point and as it stands is a very limiting ability.

With that, I'm going to have to permanently say good bye to these boards despite trying to give it a second chance; it seems very pro-Trophy Pets. What I mean by that is, take this thread. Agreed that the ones poster is coming off VERY snobby; BM gets exotics and no one else should ever be able to use them never ever! That's your "trophy" for playing the "underdog spec". Good for you. But I want to use what pet I want, with whatever spec I want. And a lot of people have felt the same. But that's my punishment for not playing BM; my pet options are hindered, though the OP made an extremely brilliant solution to the issue. The secret handshakes of rhinos and worms will probably always be for BM, so don't worry.

[TygerDarkstorm]

No you don't HAVE to use an exotic. A cat brings the same buff as a spirit beast, a wolf the same buff as a devilsaur, etc etc. You can choose between the two. If the healers are on their game, the spirit beast heal is moot and most tanks have methods of self-healing and your healers shouldn't be so terrible that they're relying on your pet anyway. Devilsaur's -healing debuff is largely useless in most raid fights currently and is something that the hunter themself (as well as a few other specs/classes) can provide if it's that needed.

The only things that says you MUST bring an exotic is YOU.

[Cozzene]

Spirit Mend Level 85
5 Focus 25 yd range
Instant 40 sec cooldown
The Spirit Beast heals the currently friendly target for (1237 + ((RAP * 0.35) * 0.5)) plus an additional (475 + ((RAP * 0.35) * 0.335)) over 10 sec.
SPIRIT BEAST. Not CAT.

Monstrous Bite Exotic Ability
Melee Range
Instant 8 sec cooldown
Your devilsaur ferociously bites the enemy, reducing the effectiveness of any healing received by 10% for 8 sec.
DEVILSAUR. Not WOLF.

Embrace of the Shale Spider Exotic Ability
Fills all friendly party and raid members with the Shale Spider's embrace, increasing Strength, Agility, Stamina, and Intellect by 5%..
SHALE SPIDER. Exotic. I think the whole idea that it's the /exotic ability/ that would be the 31 point, not the pet, is really not catching on.

Have fun with your trophies. Sorry your idea was shot down OP. Nice try though.

[TygerDarkstorm]

Spirit Mend Level 85
5 Focus 25 yd range
Instant 40 sec cooldown
The Spirit Beast heals the currently friendly target for (1237 + ((RAP * 0.35) * 0.5)) plus an additional (475 + ((RAP * 0.35) * 0.335)) over 10 sec.
SPIRIT BEAST. Not CAT.

Monstrous Bite Exotic Ability
Melee Range
Instant 8 sec cooldown
Your devilsaur ferociously bites the enemy, reducing the effectiveness of any healing received by 10% for 8 sec.
DEVILSAUR. Not WOLF.

Embrace of the Shale Spider Exotic Ability
Fills all friendly party and raid members with the Shale Spider's embrace, increasing Strength, Agility, Stamina, and Intellect by 5%..
SHALE SPIDER. Exotic. I think the whole idea that it's the /exotic ability/ that would be the 31 point, not the pet, is really not catching on.

Have fun with your trophies. Sorry your idea was shot down OP. Nice try though.

Wow, first off, you completely misread my post. But hey, I'm done discussing this because now you're just getting needlessly hostile.

[Ziarre]

None of the exotic abilities are required. If your raid needs kings/hysteria now and then, well, keep a shale spider/corehound in the stable to yank out when it's needed. Spirit Beast heal is useful, but not neccessary. Devilsaur -healing is simple enough to put on ourselves if it's really needed...most of the time it's not. Worm and Chimaera AoE doesn't quite make up for Multi-Shot hitting like a wet paper towel.

I'm sorry that people feel locked into exotics, but if you really want to use a non-exotic there's nothing stopping you.

[Rarako]

To be honest I really like your idea Acherontia. I really enjoy BM, always have, and the fact that BM hunters are based around being more reliant and bonded to our pets (extra talent points) is a wonderful bonus. My only possible problem with the concept of exotics is that they almost feel somewhere between "necessary" and "showie." Are they necessary? No. Do I have to have one out at all times? Of course not (unless my group needs a buff or I'm min/maxing). That being noted, I might not need to bring a Spirit Beast into an instance but I would be lying if I said that I didn't feel a little obligated. Could I bring my cat? Yes, but if it comes down to it, having an extra heal never hurt anybody. In that same since I love my rhino but the bleed is useless to me and I have never been in an position where my lovable brute has been necessary. I also feel for those who love their exotics but never have the chance to use them do to spec preference. As far as needing to have a pet that makes a hunter feel like they have something really special we do have rare hunting which all specs can participate in (I know some folks hate rares but this is just for arguments sake ).

The thought that with a talent system I could have any of my pets usable regardless of my spec and, while BM, be able to give them a bit more oomph sounds great to me. Placing the bonus BM choices in the pets talent trees is a good idea (they would have to be moved every expansion though) so maybe having them grayed out unless the hunter is in a BM spec would be a better option (similar to a talent being gray unless "X" number to point have been spent in "blah").

-Take the "Tame Exotics" from the Beast Mastery talent and make it the BM spec bonus
-Leave the 4 extra skill points in Beast Mastery, and add unlocking the Exotic Beast Special Ability to it
-Replace Crouching Tiger, Hidden Chimaera with Intimidate

And with that, the world is good again.

To better tidy up your idea; give ALL pets set secondary abilities; kings, fort, heal, etc. But the only way to access them is to be BM. Wanna play with your Skoll as MM? Sure! But he can't use his heal. Gonna use your Jadefang to tank that elite while you pop you Lock n Load on it? Go ahead, but no Kings for you.

Beast Mastery
You master the art of Beast training, teaching your pet an additional ability and increasing your total amount of Pet Skill Points by 4.

I also really like both Ellaran and Cozzene's ideas as well. While I think that BM works well now if it were to change or it became necessary to tweak it a bit any of this three ideas would be a great way to go about, it in my opinion. That's really all this thread is about anyway, just a bunch of hunters bouncing hypothetical "what ifs" off each other. No need for folks to get so serious and stressed over it.