Future of Raiding in WoW

[AdamSavage]

What do you guys think the raiding will be like in future patches/expansions. I'm hoping, and crossing my fingers they keep going down the same path they did with 4.3. For the first time, I've been able to nicely gear up alts from heroics etc. Today I got my Boomies gear good enough to try the Dragon Soul raid with him. It's also alot easier and faster to reach the Valor cap on more the one toon. It's also hard to guess where there going to go at the same time.

They seem to go to extremes with stuff, ZG and Zulman where far to long, even dead-mines now still takes forever. The new heroics your in and out in under 20 minutes ? I do admit the LFG raid is pretty easy, however if it was any harder it would be a failure. Trying to get random people to listen and coordinate is a hassle. Without Vent or anything like that you, need to rely on the chat system. So I can understand why there not as hard. It allows you to get an idea of the mechanics of the fight without banging your head against the wall.

However at the same time, I wonder how this will effect guild runs on normal mode. Will people even want to do normal mode ? Thoughts ?

[Lisaara]

Definitely agreed, Adam. I'm in the same boat as you.

Although theres a teensy thing I'd change....the loot system.

People who already have a weapon for the main spec should not be able to roll for it for offspec unless no one else needs or they're playing in said offspec. Example: I lost both tier pieces to a rogue who wanted them for offspec when everyone else that rolled on em needed for main spec. That pissed everyone off.....and it shouldn't have happened.

Or for example...if you're a boomkin, no you cannot need on an agility polearm off of deathwing. Why? You're a boomkin. You're a caster. You don't need to gimp ferals and hunters of a stat they actually need for their main spec.(Yes I had that happen)

[Kalliope]

Don't even get me started on the TERRIBLE paladin offtank who was able to need on an agility trinket - and won - AND bitched about not winning the loot he actually needed instead of that. Let druid tanks roll with the bonus, but not the others.

[Lisaara]

Don't even get me started on the TERRIBLE paladin offtank who was able to need on an agility trinket - and won - AND bitched about not winning the loot he actually needed instead of that. Let druid tanks roll with the bonus, but not the others.

Here here!

Loot system seems to be the biggest issue with LFR. Other than that, I'm happy with LFR.

[Vephriel]

Seems like they're definitely aware of the loot problems and are going to work on them:

Hey folks,

So, just to be clear, we're certainly aware that the loot system in Raid Finder needs to be smarter, as there's currently not a way for the system to determine loot eligibility based on talent specialization or class. To use the OP's example, if a Strength weapon drops and a hunter rolls on it, the system says "Yep, a DPS player is rolling on it. Okie dokie. Here's your +100." (We should really find ways for the game to say "okie dokie" in your chat log.)

This obviously needs to change and we're in the middle of discussing potential short-term solutions, as a more long-term solution will require programming new tech into the system which will account for class/spec.

We only ask that you keep in mind patch 4.3 is our first implementation of Raid Finder and the "Need Plus" system. The design is quite complicated and requires further iteration to make loot distribution more intelligent.

-----

We recognize the issue with duplicate drops being won by the same person as well. This is something we need to fix.

[Lisaara]

Seems like they're definitely aware of the loot problems and are going to work on them:

Hey folks,

So, just to be clear, we're certainly aware that the loot system in Raid Finder needs to be smarter, as there's currently not a way for the system to determine loot eligibility based on talent specialization or class. To use the OP's example, if a Strength weapon drops and a hunter rolls on it, the system says "Yep, a DPS player is rolling on it. Okie dokie. Here's your +100." (We should really find ways for the game to say "okie dokie" in your chat log.)

This obviously needs to change and we're in the middle of discussing potential short-term solutions, as a more long-term solution will require programming new tech into the system which will account for class/spec.

We only ask that you keep in mind patch 4.3 is our first implementation of Raid Finder and the "Need Plus" system. The design is quite complicated and requires further iteration to make loot distribution more intelligent.

-----

We recognize the issue with duplicate drops being won by the same person as well. This is something we need to fix.

I'm glad they're aware of it.

[Kalliope]

We recognize the issue with duplicate drops being won by the same person as well. This is something we need to fix.

Ha, we were just talking about this earlier in my 10m. Good that that's on the list too!

[Loki]

A boomkin actually won Kiril, Fury of Beasts off Deathwing when I did the raid finder. Luckily I asked him to give it to me (I was second highest) and being a reasonable sort he did so. However the majority of people would probably have kept it instead. I must have lost about 9 set tokens over 2 runs of the first 4 bosses and 1 run of the second 4. Since they only drop 4 items instead of the 5-6 per boss that usually drop in 25 it is really hard to get anything even without all the random ninjaing going on (good luck on me ever getting the epic ilevel 391 bow from the end boss without someone beating me or a rogue stealing it, on Wowhead there was even a story of a rogue needing and disenchanting it from under a hunter).

[Kalliope]

Had an issue last night where the main tank got bumped to dps because another tank queued in. THAT was weird.

Then on the next group I was in, I assigned healers to buffs for Ultraxion....and was very surprised to see one of the druids pop out of the group IN OWL FORM to grab the buff. Needless to say, the buff wouldn't do anything for his dps, but yeah....he got queued as a healer, but was dpsing. Sigh.

[Lisaara]

A boomkin actually won Kiril, Fury of Beasts off Deathwing when I did the raid finder. Luckily I asked him to give it to me (I was second highest) and being a reasonable sort he did so. However the majority of people would probably have kept it instead. I must have lost about 9 set tokens over 2 runs of the first 4 bosses and 1 run of the second 4. Since they only drop 4 items instead of the 5-6 per boss that usually drop in 25 it is really hard to get anything even without all the random ninjaing going on (good luck on me ever getting the epic ilevel 391 bow from the end boss without someone beating me or a rogue stealing it, on Wowhead there was even a story of a rogue needing and disenchanting it from under a hunter).

I had that problem too with a boomkin but he didnt give it up. :/

[Ket Shi]

I'm optimistic about the future of heroics and raiding for Pandaria. They said they want to return to heroics being as difficult as they were in WotLK and for raid finder dungeons to replace them as the place to get training wheels for raids. No more overtuned, unrewarding mistakes like the Rise of the Zandalari heroics! Remember that raid finder will return in Pandaria for all raids, even the beginning ones.

They said by then that they will definitely hammer out the loot roll problems, but I hope it comes sooner than later!

[AdamSavage]

How much of a difference is there from the 25 man raid finder version, compared to 10 man non heroic ?

[Kalliope]

How much of a difference is there from the 25 man raid finder version, compared to 10 man non heroic ?

Difficulty? Loot item level?

[AdamSavage]

Difficulty? Loot item level?

The Difficulty level, I guess I should of been more clear.

[Kalliope]

Probably astronomical, since 10 man hard modes are (as far as I know) still harder than the 25 man hard modes.

[Loki]

10 man non heroic Dragon Soul first boss is very easy. The fight is exactly the same as the LFR version so the only issue is DPSing before he enrages.

[Schatzy]

How much of a difference is there from the 25 man raid finder version, compared to 10 man non heroic ?

The first four bosses are all extremely easy on normal as well (though Hagara and the two faceless ones actually require some brain capacity, unlike in raid finder), but the last four bosses require planning (or at least significant amounts of thought). For example, Ultraxion's Hour of Twilight ability one-shots anyone who's not under the effects of Heroic Will or a major cooldown (unlike in raid finder where you just get a slap on the wrist).

[Worba]

What do you guys think the raiding will be like in future patches/expansions. I'm hoping, and crossing my fingers they keep going down the same path they did with 4.3. For the first time, I've been able to nicely gear up alts from heroics etc. Today I got my Boomies gear good enough to try the Dragon Soul raid with him. It's also alot easier and faster to reach the Valor cap on more the one toon. It's also hard to guess where there going to go at the same time.

They seem to go to extremes with stuff, ZG and Zulman where far to long, even dead-mines now still takes forever. The new heroics your in and out in under 20 minutes ? I do admit the LFG raid is pretty easy, however if it was any harder it would be a failure. Trying to get random people to listen and coordinate is a hassle. Without Vent or anything like that you, need to rely on the chat system. So I can understand why there not as hard. It allows you to get an idea of the mechanics of the fight without banging your head against the wall.

However at the same time, I wonder how this will effect guild runs on normal mode. Will people even want to do normal mode ? Thoughts ?

That's an excellent question - and the points you made resonate with me as well.

E.g. I tend to avoid raids because...

A) I do the raid. Either I spend a chunk of time reading up on it and memorizing the strats like a responsible raider, or I blunder straight in, die lots and possibly cause a wipe. And until I'm pulling my own weight, I'm going to feel guilty needing on anything that others (who did a better job) are after.

B) I spend time on alts. I have a few million of these and they always need leveling, rep, transmog items or etc. I can do all of these things on my own time at my own speed, and no matter how badly I fail or how long it takes me (like, two dozen plus runs of UBRS to get Rend's Doomsaw, only to discover it looks like crap on my BE... yeah, that kinda thing), I haven't wasted one minute of anyone else's time.

But this is not to say I think hard raids are bad - to the contrary they're a good thing; they're not really for me right now, but they are good for others who really want to be pushed to the limit and I wouldn't like to see the entire game go EZ mode.

So I think what they need is both - some raids on EZ mode, and others on hard mode. They can both have their normal / heroic modes, but the harder ones would have slightly better gear.

My 0.2

[Sigrah]

The trouble with loot in the Raid Finder is the same as it is in Heroics - Everyone is out for themselves. Some are going to roll need on items for their off sets, some are going to roll need on items for their friends thinking they'll be able to trade it to them if they win (even though it should be known by now that you can't), and some are going to roll need on it because it's a new way to grief people.

Now, I can tolerate the off-spec rolling, and would even tolerate friends rolling on things if these items were tradable, but there's really no excuse when it comes to the griefing part of it. However, all you can do is report it if someone taunts you and hope Blizzard punishes them for it. Beyond that, there's not much you can do about it, and Blizzard has already said fine tuning it is going to take a lot of time. Personally, I think they won't fine tune it until MoP because of all the talent and weapon changes they'll be implementing.

As far as future raids in the raid finder go, I am hoping they'll add the battle ground raids (if they have one in MoP) so people don't have to sit in trade trying to find one. To make it work, they would have to have locks on it so that you can only queue for it if your faction has control on your server (and a kick out if you don't get one before the cut-off time). I know they can be easy to get into, but after a few weeks, they get harder if you don't have the achievement on that toon. I also hope they'll go back and add "classic" raids as an option for the overgeared people that want to do them solely for transmog gear. I know, not likely to happen, but I can hope.

[Kalliope]

How much of a difference is there from the 25 man raid finder version, compared to 10 man non heroic ?

The first four bosses are all extremely easy on normal as well (though Hagara and the two faceless ones actually require some brain capacity, unlike in raid finder), but the last four bosses require planning (or at least significant amounts of thought). For example, Ultraxion's Hour of Twilight ability one-shots anyone who's not under the effects of Heroic Will or a major cooldown (unlike in raid finder where you just get a slap on the wrist).

This is well-put; I agree completely.

There are also little extra things to watch that aren't in the raid finder fights. On the normal 10m on Ultraxion, a player other than the tank has to phase out before hour of twilight, because they get the same extra debuff. I haven't dpsed that fight on normal 10 myself (and therefore haven't had to phase), but it looked annoying to keep track of to me.

There are sappers on the boat too. They stealth and run toward the cabin to do massive damage to the ship if they aren't pulled out and killed ASAP. Imagine coordinating a LFR pug to do that AND hop into the next big circle....