Hey kids! Who wants a dungeon wipe??

[Worba]

<Oh! Oh! MeMeMe!!>

/sarc off

To make a long story short, last night I had the misfortune of being grouped with one of the worst tanks I've yet seen. Did not taunt, could not hold aggro, and employed an "every man for himself" style of tanking whenever we had a large group to fight (of which there were many as this tank did not plan for nearby pats). Needless to say he often didn't need heals because everyone else ended up taking the hits instead - yeah he was that awesome.

Shaman suggests we kick him, but I hold out to see how it will go - maybe he just needs time to warm up.

Nope, we wiped. Tried to kick but "player cannot be kicked during or shortly after combat". Repeated attempts finally lead to "player cannot be kicked for another 10 minutes" (I guess you're not allowed to kick during the first 10 minutes of a pug, because I hadn't kicked anyone else in a couple weeks).

The 10 minute protect-the-stupid shield passes (painfully), and I try once more - "A vote kick is already in progress". Oh, thinks I, the shaman must have already started the vote - I'll just wait for the prompt then.

"You have been removed from the group".

Yup - failtank finds 2 dupes and gets to pass the buck instead of being kicked. Awesome!

At first I was like "wait what I don't even - how is it that anyone could fail to see the weak link?", but then I got to thinking that when you're a DPS (especially if that's all you play), and the tank or heals initiate a vote kick vs the other one, you as DPS are going to tend to just take their word for it. Because as obvious as it was to me being the healer (and to the shaman who took most of the damage), to the other guys it's all stuff that happens behind the scenes - all they know is that they wiped.

So being heals, I just insta-requeued into a new strat group - this time we had a tank who was good, but seemingly high on speed, because he blasted through the place without stopping to even loot let alone regain mana, except when I told him to wait... and even then he'd only wait for me to get like 60-70% before launching into the next group of mobs.

But I managed to keep up just the same (and no he was not carrying anyone - his HP still fell like a rock when he dive bombed into a crowd of mobs), and we finished probably in record time with no wipes, so it was a nice vindication of myself as healer...

As for the first group, I felt bad for the shaman and whichever poor soul showed up as replacement heals, but unless he changed his playstyle after the kick, the tank and his 2 co-voters inevitably had themselves more of the same frustration, armor repairs and etc, so in the end I count myself the winner.

It did get me thinking though - TBH I can't say for certain there weren't a few times in the distant past when playing my hunters and I shot myself in the foot by blindly clicking "yes" on a vote kick, and left myself stranded with the same baddie. So I'm going to see if I can come up with some basic non-hair-splitting criteria that people can use to determine when a role is being played badly.

[Royi]

oh dear......

[Morven]

I had the complete opposite experience last night -- newbie tank who'd actually read up on what he should do, used caution, and did well. Warmed the heart, it did.

[Worba]

Sounds nice!

[Lisaara]

Hey sounds like my LFR group except it was ALL the healers that couldnt heal to save their lives.....cause they decided "Lets que for LFR in pvp blues!"

[Worba]

I've never had good experience with the LFR - chock full of elitists who assume that because this is the first time you've run the particular instance, any and every problem must be your fault.

Stupid people are cute when they try to be smart. ^ ^

[Galaxy]

I talked to my raid MT once. Turns out, there's this whole Alpha Wolf thing going on in L4R. Like, the douchier you are, the more you establish dominance.

SAD TIMES, though. I ran with a girl who was HOOOOORRIBLE in attitude. I tried to tell her to chillax a little since she entered the place calling everyone some profane word or another. 25 insults took about the entire boss pull. She was "Oh yeah, Galaxy? Out dps me!" and I was like "I'm not going to". Anyone with a brain could see I'm there in complete pvp epics and probably the spec and lack of hit to go with it. I just stopped reforging numerous times a week >.> got expensive

ANYWAY- I usually am somewhere in the top middle of the dps chart so whatever, right? I don't need to be top on Galaxy. I just wanna see content, get some gear, let my pets chew on some npc chew toys and call it an evening.

For some reason, though, I had it with the attitude from this person. She just rubbed me the wrong way. Ultimately, out I stabbed: "The reason you are so lonely is because of your attitude." She BURST like a VOLCANO! musta' hit a chord...

And, my to my absolute astonishment, she was kicked (not me! wow!) right before the last boss of the raid. She was top dps!

Afterwards, I received tells thanking me for standing up to her.

CRAZY world we live in, yeah? So, that's why I talked to the raid MT about it. His opinion was exactly my opener here: establishing dominance is key in L4R pugs to not be kicked. I usually leave well enough alone, but maybe, MAYBE that's not quite the psychology that works in game?

[Worba]

I'd say it's simpler - if things are going less than swimmingly, a lot of people just blindly click yes on the kick vote as soon as it pops up. Basically they're just feeling grumpy and assume whoever submitted the petition must know what they are talking about.

Now I'll grant you, sometimes the angry loudmouths do manage to set others up for a kick by repeatedly undermining them in chat, but again, kicking still takes at least 2 others who are lazy enough to accept the loudmouth's noise verbatim.

That's why it's good to speak up like you did, because if it comes to a vote kick, the blind voters will at least have more than one person's say-so to take into account.

EDIT: TL/DR - after a wipe, someone must be kicked. To the majority, it doesn't usually matter who - as long as someone is sacrificed they feel appeased. So in that environment, advantage goes to whoever is quicker to start the vote. Hence the need for education... :]

[Galaxy]

Fair enough, Worba! That does beg the question, however, why does the person initiate such a vote to kick, then? Self preservation? Generally crabby and taking it out randomly?

TOTALLY AGREE with the OP, though, about blind clicking. Not good. Yeah, I've done it once or twice. Usually, I think about it before clicking and the kick passes or fails before I make up my mind. But, maybe the ppl who blind click are just in a mode of "ANYTHING to get this to stop!"?

EDIT: TL/DR - after a wipe, someone must be kicked. To the majority, it doesn't usually matter who - as long as someone is sacrificed they feel appeased. So in that environment, advantage goes to whoever is quicker to start the vote. Hence the need for education... :]

THE DUNGEON GODS MUST BE APPEASED!

[Finduilas]

I only once had bad experiences in LFR, although I was mentally prepared for more. Had nice people hand over tokens to ones who need them more several times. Only time I was about to hit someone was when I was LFR with my main hunter. Two other hunters enter before Spine, I check the gear of both. Both have the polearm and the bow. I let out a mental relief and hope for the weapons to drop. We kill Deathwing and tadaa the bow dropps. I already begin cheering im my mind, when I see one of the hunters roll need on it. I'm like WTF just happened? I ask her nicely to hand over the bow, as she already has it. I get a snappy answer with "what are you gonna give me for it?" I feel anger raising in me, does she really want to blackmail me? I ask again, to hand me the bow and be quiet and tell her how ridiculos she acts. (I say she, because it was a female toon). Meanwhile the other raidmembers all have their loots and left. I'm alone with nasty girl now. She gets insulting and I tell her the only thing she will ever get from me is a ticket. She /lols at me and with a "that's your problem" leaves the party. Needless to say I never saw the bow dropp again, never got any tokens and my main still wears HOT-gear all over >.<
I submitted a ticket about the player and got a GM tell me, that he'll act according to their guidelines. Whatever this means.... I put the nasty toon on igno and will votekick her if I should ever happen to get into a dungeon/raid with her again.

A few days ago in pvp I did miss a votekick function for one player (not that I EVER wanted a votekick for pvp!!!). It was a DEATHKNIGHT in MAIL greens and blues with Int and Spirit on them, no enchants and using an agility polearm as weapon. I really wanted to send him to hell, sadly he was in my team. I tried asking him about his armor, but got no answer (I wanted to help him, not flame him!).

[Worba]

Fair enough, Worba! That does beg the question, however, why does the person initiate such a vote to kick, then? Self preservation? Generally crabby and taking it out randomly?

It's either

1) They are unwilling to play their chosen role, but feel that "people get kicked for stupid BS all the time so I might as well play the system and get my loot"

2) They are unable to play their chosen role, either because they are stupid, or their class growth has been stunted by people quietly carrying them through pugs, but in either case, they hold others responsible for whatever % of their job that they are not doing.

Either way, every time such individuals successfully pull off a vote kick, they become that much more vindicated in feeling that their approach is the right one.

[Galaxy]

aw yeah, I'm a firm believer that we ALL started somewhere and that person was either

1) dedicated to trolling
-or-
2) in need of direction

I bet on 2.

I don't know about ya'lls battle groups, but Nightfall has a trend where we will need it if we have it, and sell it to other players that do need it. Stupid exploit, imo.

This coming from the hunter that has a raid team that takes our 10 man into a 25 in order to ninja the loot to insure we get what we need. >.>' Talk about calling the kettle black.

Edit to respond to Worba!
Makes sense to me!

[Worba]

Yes, you make a good point - to be fair, there's one more - and it's something everyone can relate to, to some degree:

3) They are unable to play their chosen role, because they have asked others for guidance in the past but got snarled and snapped at by know-it-alls who expect everyone to either magically start out knowing their class, treat it like an online college course and spend hours researching before they dare set foot in the dungeon finder, or else to learn through abuse (e.g. "wtf you #$#@ why'd u do X - any @#$! knows you should've done Y" <== to many of the "experts", that is valuable, sage advice), and so consequently they became jaded and figured "screw you, you will take my 40% and like it, or be kicked"...*

The moral of story here is... if you hear someone ask for advice... even if your first reaction is "how can someone not know that...", do everyone including yourself a favor and just throw them a bone (beyond typing "www.google.com" in chat)... because if not, you might get stuck with them failtanking or failhealing your pug at some point...

*And for many of these, the next time THEY hear someone politely asking for advice, they go ahead and tear the person's head off... because that's how THEY were treated after all...

[Morven]

I do agree, Worba. I don't think it explains everybody -- perhaps only 25% of them -- but it is real and is there.

That's why I generally try and help people, give non-bitchy advice, and am tolerant of newbie mistakes. Mistakes happen. I'm a lot less tolerant of things going wrong through arrogance than inexperience, though.

When we wipe, I tend to blame myself a bit too much, if anything.

I am very tired of tanks in 5-man LFG who run through so fast that the healer can't even pick up loot, though. Most LFG tanks need a heck of a lot more healer awareness, like how LoS'ing themselves from the healer is a bad move.

[Wassa]

Yesterday I literately had our healer say what the title of the topic is.

I recently picked up an old warrior of mine I haven't touched since late BC/early Wrath. She was an old 49 twink and has the best gear she could get (at that time) and fully enchanted and whatnot. I've been leveling her as a tank (tanking is also something I haven't done since Wrath) and enjoying it.

Groups have been good so far until I got Sunken Temple for the first time. Our healer was overly talkative and probably typing more than healing me, as I got low health on trash often. A boe staff drops with stats made for a hunter/druid, but we had neither in the group so I just greeded it and so did everyone else... but the dps warrior. She needed it and proceeded to use it. I figured she must be new to the game as her gear wasn't the greatest and she was wearing some int plate pieces as well. I started to tell her in party chat that staves aren't the best for a warrior and wanted to give her some advice on stats but our healer would not stop bitching. He tried to kick the warrior for the reason of "ninja nub" and it failed before I got to click "no" on it as well. After it failed he stopped healing completely. He teleported out of the dungeon and sat afk in the city while we couldn't kick him. Just as the timer was about to come up to kick him, he ported back in and said "ready to wipe guys!" and pulled all the trash we didn't clear yet. The moment he died he ran back in and pulled again to keep himself in combat so we couldn't kick him and kept killing the other dps that didn't know not to dps and to just run out. Thankfully I ran out myself and didn't die once. After the healer killed himself four times (which I found funny he was willing to kill himself over and over for this stupid reason) we finally got a second to kick him and finished the run with a new healer without any wipes, plus the new warrior got some better gear and a new weapon much better for a warrior.

I forgot to ignore the healer so I wouldn't group with him again, but I remember his name just in case if he is in my group again. Times like this I wish being kicked from a group gives you the same debuff as if you left early. That healer needed one. =/

[Galaxy]

^ also very true

I'm HUGE on helping others, and beyond that, heck, even I make mistakes now and again after playing for forever. Yeah, I'll run into that mob we were skipping b/c I'm on auto pilot and didn't register the new pattern. Yeah, I'll tab target fail and shoot something I'm not supposed to. Or, frustratingly enough, you can bank money I'll run in and aggro Ahnk the pigmy guy in a normal run that we were supposed to hop into the water to skip.

OMG, did I just say it?

I'm Human.

Heck, even computers make mistakes.

And yes, the Cata xpac seems to drill into our heads "AWARENESS" with giant beat sticks. Owww....

The thing is, though: can the bad attitude. So what if we wipe? It's not like I ran into your car and I have no insurance. The dungeon gods actually don't exist and don't require a player sacrifice. Lend a hand, help a new player, remember it's a game and not, as mentioned, a college course. It really IS hard to remember that, from time to time. *guilty*

If the person is consciously being a problem, that's a totally different story. ...not that I've ever misdirected a mob onto the jerk player *cough*



worth it

Edit to clarify:
Totally not directing any of this at our OP Everyone has to vent sometime and this is a group of friends!

[Morven]

It's the whole attitude that a wipe is a tragedy that gets me, too. It just happens. Sometimes the RNG gods will it. Someday your healer will be stunned or silenced at exactly the time the boss crits three times in a row against the tank. Someday the tank will hit lag just at the wrong point. Stuff like that.

[Worba]

/nod

While I'm more than happy to give advice to someone who asks for it, and willing to cut more slack for anyone who says it's their first time through... I've found that when I offer unsolicited advice, either I get snapped at or ignored.

So if no one's asking for advice, then I will keep to things like "oom, pls wait", or "when Herod says blades of light, back off till his shield goes down", etc, but otherwise I just try to be patient and give the person a chance to hit their stride - often that's all that is needed.

But the tank in group 1 was just quietly stumbling from one group of mobs to the next, without taunting or doing anything to hold aggro, which forced me to run my mana into the ground using flash of light to keep the squishies alive... and paid no attention when asked to wait for mana (by both myself and the DPS shaman), so when we wiped, it was kind of obvious that a kick was the only option.