Signs of an *adequate* healer or tank...

[Worba]

First off I want to be clear on what this is, and is not intended to be:

Is:

1) A list of basic criteria that someone not intimately familiar with the role, can look for and use to evaluate their tank or healer's performance, so that if a vote kick comes up, they will be able to make a reasonably informed decision and not shoot themself in the foot by kicking the wrong player.

Is NOT:

1) A guide on how to tank or heal
2) A list of what makes a "great" tank or heals - the stuff here is just to indicate if the player is at least adequate
3) Nitty gritty, exhaustive or even complete - if you see something simple that's not covered here, feel free to add it

Also I want to be clear that this is not slanted towards or against any role - I play all 3 on different toons, and love them all.

And lastly, when a vote kick does come up, it's important to apply these criteria to everyone - including the person initiating the vote kick. After a wipe, it's easy to blindly click yes on the first vote that comes up (most of us, if we're being 100% honest, have done that at one point or another), but bear in mind that many of the worst players employ a "best defense is a good offense" approach to avoid being kicked, and will quite happily try to deflect the blame onto another player... all they need are 2 "monkey see / monkey click" players to make it happen. So don't be one of those...

Decent Tanks...
1) Use taunt when someone else is being directly attacked and otherwise ensure that most of the (non-AOE / fire puddle) dmg is going to them (at least if the person's HP falls below 75% - if the healer is having to consistently spend more time healing DPS than the tank, something is very wrong)
2) Occasionally pull rather than charge, to avoid patrols and other unwanted extras
3) Aren't scared of grabbing more aggro if extra mobs show up - they know that tanking is not a shared responsibility (not in a 5-man anyway)
4) Pay attention to the healer's mana bar, because they know it's essentially their extended HP bar. Paying attention to DPS power bars is optional - if the tank is keeping track of that as well, that tank is not merely adequate, he/she is good.
5) Aren't afraid to call out DPS for failing to stack on his target (where fight mechanics allow, which is 90-95% of the time) or anyone else who is working against him/her - regardless of who has the "dungeon guide" tag, the tank's responsible for knowing his/her role and speaking up if others are impeding it.

Decent Healers...
1) Can keep the tank alive through almost any 5 man content that is level-appropriate and not a reckless overpull, as long as tank is keeping aggro on him/herself
2) Can get through a normal 3-4 mob pull without using much mana - if it takes half or more of his bar for a casual group of mobs, something is very wrong.
3) Are able to heal multiple players and remember that DPS need heals too - even with a good tank, the DPS are going to get bashed now and then. Pets however are optional - pet classes have primary responsibility for keeping their pets healed, if the healer can stay on top of that as well, then your healer is not merely adequate, he/she is good.
4) Remember the "big heals", like LoH, shields and etc during tough fights. An adequate healer may not remember every single one of them, but if the group wipes and he hasn't used *any*, then you've got yourself a subpar healer.
5) Aren't afraid to call for mana breaks or otherwise address group members working against him/her - same as for the tank, if certain players are consistently creating an unnecessary burden on the healer (like for example a warlock constantly spamming life tap or etc), then it's the healer's responsibility to speak up.
6) Don't expect others (like enh shammy, ret paladin, etc) to heal themselves - they know that mana using DPS need their mana to do their own group roles, and not to "share the burden".

Decent players of *any* role...
1) Are able to listen to and consider (polite, helpful) advice from other players without throwing a defensive fit. If they solicit advice from others, they are not merely adequate - they are good (or likely soon will be, on that trajectory).

Hope this helps - and again additions within the above scope are welcome!

[Galaxy]

Be mindful, in Cata, of the healer gear. If the person is a fresh 85 and healing, chances are the mana will drain quickly (There's even a druid tier set bonus to stop that from being a problem, unless Blizz changed that set in one of these patches). I've played resto druid for 4 years, have a fresh 85 druid and have that problem now, where-as same player, different druid, Dragonsoul geared has 0 mana trouble in heroics. So, just be mindful if they are fresh or not. Healers can't heal through everything, and if the tank is *exceptional*, (s)he'll know they are a fresh healer and adjust pulls accordingly.

Just my two cents there on healing and gear.

Other than that, I find the tanks that don't expect us to skip mobs my favourites. Now, I don't mean staying to one side and my pet not aggro-ing b/c the mobs are clearly a distance away. I mean having to dismiss my pet, and camo (safety precaution), and jump over boxes and carts and such. 9 times out of 10, SOMEONE pulls the mob being avoided and chaos ensues with the tank yelling at that person and trying to vote to kick them. In those that just take the convenience kill, their overall tanking seems to be a bar up the ladder, but I could be biased by that one singular point.

[Worba]

Good point. Sounds more like a design failure on Blizzard's part in re: a healer "upgrade" set that actually leaves you worse off mana-wise, but yeah, good to know.

[Galaxy]

They adjusted it a smidge in a patch but here it is: http://www.wowpedia.org/Obsidian_Arborweave_Vestments

Still, though, they had to fix a mana issue like this in the first place? Rock on Blizz, Rock on.

On a side note: http://www.wowpedia.org/Deep_Earth_Vest ... id_Finder)

Still helping mana, though not as aggressive

[Morven]

One sign of bad tanking: the kind that just expects everyone else to keep up with them and never pauses. It's not the worst kind, but it's exhausting. Especially when I can't even get to pick up loot out of worrying he'll get out of healing distance.

[Shade]

One sign of bad tanking: the kind that just expects everyone else to keep up with them and never pauses. It's not the worst kind, but it's exhausting. Especially when I can't even get to pick up loot out of worrying he'll get out of healing distance.

I let him get out of distance and then die if he is in that much of a rush. Cannot stand tanks who run through on fast forward and dont give the rest of the group time to loot, mana up whatever. They can't do the instance on their own, there is a reason that they are in an actual group, but some tanks seem to think they are superman. Really despise those kinds.

[Worba]

That's what the tank in my second group was doing... and it was annoying, but after my experiences in the first group, I was so grateful just to have a tank who knew how to, well, *tank* (as in: able to keep all mobs on himself during actual combat), that I gave him a pass on the hyper go-go-go-must-be-in-combat-at-all-times behavior.

But then, I was only there for the end boss quest reward - if I was just doing randoms, it probably would have grated on me more...

[Aquillian]

I'd add:

Good tanks
-Don't pull with taunt, instead saving it for when necessary and pull with threat generating abilities such as feral faerie fire/shield/etc.
-Know how to LoS packs to avoid patrols or control casters.
-Can pull mobs out of a CCed pack without breaking the CC.
-Interrupt at least the big bad things that may be cast by enemies, like the shadow weavers back in AN.
-FACE MOBS AWAY FROM THE GROUP. Such a huge one!
-Know how to position pulls properly with minimal movement.

Good heals
-Are never just standing there not casting while people take damage.
-Can explain exactly why someone died if they died.
-Know when they need CC and when they won't to handle pulls based on the tank and group's gear.

^^

And for what it's worth we all start somewhere. I am patient even with the not so good tanks and heals. It's a tough role to learn, I remember learning each one. Really takes time to get it just right.

[Worba]

Thanks, and you are right those are traits of a good player.

Remember though, the main purpose of this thread is just to help players unfamiliar with tanking or healing to identify tanks or healers who are adequate - once you get beyond that level, their eyes tend to start glazing over and knowledge retention plummets.

I will adjust the thread title though - "decent" can still be construed as "good".

[Aquillian]

*nods* I suppose in my eyes these are all things people should be watching for. If a votekick comes up for the healer, and the tank has been facing mobs towards the group and spraying/breathing them with bad stuff, people may assume it's the healer's fault for not keeping them alive when in fact the tank should never have exposed the group to that sort of damage anyway. Likewise for big nasty casts. :) My two cents/experience.

[Morven]

It's worth people remembering, too, that most of the time healers and tanks are in shorter supply than DPS and you shouldn't kick them lightly. Extreme incompetence is one thing; merely being adequate instead of great, though, is really something one just has to live with.

A lot of the reason there are fewer healers and tanks is because of the responsibility and blame; don't add to it unnecessarily.

[Worba]

*nods* I suppose in my eyes these are all things people should be watching for. If a votekick comes up for the healer, and the tank has been facing mobs towards the group and spraying/breathing them with bad stuff, people may assume it's the healer's fault for not keeping them alive when in fact the tank should never have exposed the group to that sort of damage anyway. Likewise for big nasty casts. My two cents/experience.

Yeah, it's a tough call - because as you say there are specific things that are not only hallmarks of a *good* tank / healer, but that also are *necessary* in some cases, if you want to prevent a wipe.

I'd say that's where rule #5 comes in - essentially, DPS may not have a clue - after all they're not going to tank OR heal, but if you as healer do not want to be blamed for the tank's mistake (or vice versa) - even though said mistake was only that he/she was adequate rather than good - then it's a good idea for you to be more informed about the other role, and speak up before it comes to a wipe.

It's worth people remembering, too, that most of the time healers and tanks are in shorter supply than DPS and you shouldn't kick them lightly. Extreme incompetence is one thing; merely being adequate instead of great, though, is really something one just has to live with.

A lot of the reason there are fewer healers and tanks is because of the responsibility and blame; don't add to it unnecessarily.

100% agreed - that's essentially the entire goal of this thread.

[Galaxy]

My heart went out to a new dk tank yesterday while leveling Rosa. He wasn't even aware that unholy has a ghoul out all the time. Neeewww!!! <3<3 I wanted to hug him instantly!

Poor tank got screamed at by the group, though, and people quit on us 3 times. (3 new groups total)

While waiting for new players to join, he asked why I was so nice and not leaving with the rest. I explained that we all have to start somewhere, and gave him a few basic pointers. When we got the 3rd group, everyone was so nice to the guy his confidence went back up.

BAM. He suddenly, abruptly, became a decent tank; decent enough the whole group wanted to go again!

In short: HE LISTENED. Can we have a good tank trait be listening/communication skills? I hate it when tanks think we're psychic and know the fights and their tanking style ahead of time. I also hate it when they don't listen when someone says, "hey, we can make that easier by doing xyz if ya' wanna' try".

[Worba]

Can we have a good tank trait be listening/communication skills? I hate it when tanks think we're psychic and know the fights and their tanking style ahead of time. I also hate it when they don't listen when someone says, "hey, we can make that easier by doing xyz if ya' wanna' try".

Good suggestion.

#5 already covered the need to speak up (and not assume other group members can read your mind, as typical baddies do), but yeah, listening is also key, so I added that as #6 (for both roles, ofc).

Obviously when applying this criteria one has to factor in whether said advice was in fact both helpful and polite - I've encountered many crusty jerks who either say something stupid, like Q: how can i do better dps on my fury warrior, A: why does your fury warrior have tailoring? Number 1 that's not an answer it's just a question, and #2 my warrior had both tailoring and engineering, mmk?

Or else they say something useful but using obnoxious language, like Q: how can i do better dps on my fury warrior? A: your gems are wrong, everything should be arpen not str (this was back in 3.3 when we still had arpen), and I'm not going to waste any more time reviewing your gear. When I basically told him FU2, he acted all hurt and wailed about how this is why no one should give advice...

[Galaxy]

TACT. I totally forgot that people these days lack tact. You so right about that. I say we petition Blizzard to make an adjustment to flasks that everything said is said tactfully. *giggle*

[Worba]

Updated to include a sign of an inadequate healer.

You don't see this too often these days thankfully, but nonetheless this movement's adherents are still out there - those who believe that the healer is only required to heal those who cannot heal themselves.

The more hardcore believe DPS with mana (DWM) should heal themselves in all circumstances - in combat or otherwise, whilst the more casual members of the movement are willing to heal DWMs during combat, but if they don't get to you during battle and you end up at 40-50%, you should go ahead and heal yourself.

Nevermind that DPS with mana need their mana to do their own group role, or that by the same "logic" you could expect the healer to assist with DPS since after all they DO have attack spells... No - roles matter, that's why they exist in the first place, and the only role that's shared is DPS. Not tanking, and not healing.

I'm not talking about DPS walking around at 80-90% with a few scratches and dents loudly demanding heals, I'm talking about ones who are down at 50-60%, or lower - they need heals, and that's what the group healers' mana is for. If you didn't get to them during the fight, now's your chance to get caught up on your job - don't try to dump it on the DPS.

I'm also not saying DWMs shouldn't have to use their own heals, shields or etc *in emergencies* - all DPS have emergency fallbacks for this purpose (flash of light, feign death, etc) and need to be ready to use them in the occasional moments where the tank gets stunned, feared, killed or etc, but that should be the extreme exception, not the rule.

If you're the group healer, and your mana is so limited that you have to (routinely) triage your heals to mana-less DPS and leave DWMs to fend for themselves - whether in combat or otherwise - then you shouldn't be healing at all - just sign up as DPS and let someone else handle the job.

[Ceravan]

In case I missed it, a good tank or good healer, even adequate, knows when/if it's his/her fault for a wipe and freely admits it before drama/ragequitting ensues.

I don't heal, but I do tank, and there are times when I have caused a wipe because I did something stupid, intentionally or otherwise, and I've fessed up to it. People make mistakes, always remember that, no matter how good a tank, healer, or dps is. They can be the slickest, smoothest, best player in their spec out there, but one misclick, on RL distraction, and the mistake can happen. The good people are the ones that can correct the mistake, the adequate ones are the ones that at least know they made the mistake, the bad ones are the ones that want to blame everyone else.

[Worba]

That's not the point - if the person who caused the wipe just admits it, then yes things are fine. They may still be kicked (personally I do admit when I cause a problem, and I'd be alot more understanding of anyone who freely admitted their own fault), but at least if they are kicked, then blame went to the right person.

But that's not the point of this thread.

The reason for this thread is cases where no one admits to a mistake, and so someone initiates a vote kick vs a player who may not have been responsible. Sometimes the person nominated for a kick deserves it, but sometimes the person initiating the kick is the one who caused the wipe, and is just trying to deflect the blame, and sometimes it can be initiated by someone who simply doesn't understand other class roles; either way, now you have 3 other players having to decide if the person up for the kick actually deserves it - and more often than not, at least when we're talking about a more specialized role like tanking or healing, the people casting the votes have little to no idea what actually goes into playing the class, and therefore may rush to judgement due to incorrect expectations.

Which is why I put together a list of basic criteria people can use in these unfortunate circumstances - so that when it's left to them to decide "who done it", they can make a more informed decision.