Nerf to Hunter self-healing

[Albain]

I fully support the nerf to Spirit Bond. As it was, 3k healing every 2 seconds on a level 85 pet, which scaled up from there with the other glyph for 10% healing, meant I didn't have to throw a single mend pet. In fact, I thought my pet was bugged, it was never dropping below 90k health /period/. The only challenge (on a ferocity pet even!) came with five or six mobs on it at once, and even then it was a very, very slow health decline.

Now at least I have to press the mend pet button once in a while.

Deterrance nerf I'm not so sold on, not yet.

[Sasrei]

I like to think of it that it was a little OP so a little nerf was needed, this is my view over nerf.

Spirit bond used to be BM only, now they are giving it to all specs. Chimera shot is MM only still so only those who are MM spec will have a ton of extra heals. Survival has.. nothing.. why they call it survival maybe they just want you to try extra hard cause right now they have no self heals

All classes have some form of healing, some like dks, pallies, warriors, rogues have way to much self healing.

Self healing in pve is still really needed kalli, cause even though the boss itself may not be targetting me, there could be aoes (like ultra) to numerous adds to tank (like yorsh) or multiple things that will hurt you if you touch them. And any little heal will help the healers.

Though if your going to take the disegage heal in pve may not be a good idea to get the extra distance glypp Remember the times wayyyy back when you had your pet on aggressive and he ran off? Well now its more like you disengage into a group of mobs or the boss or off the side.

Locks may be used alot more with that possiblity of going someplace very far away all alone..

[Myrrmi]

I agree, the Spirit bond was far too OP.

Even on live, my spirit bear (ferocity, ofc) can tank up to 3-4 mobs during my TB dailies without me having to use mend pet even once - just with the self heal from own dps, spirit bond and his own heal (which I just let him cast at his leisure). I shiver thinking what would he become with the buffed spirit bond. Would he even need his player at all anymore...? TnT

Still, after the nerf, what we're getting is much better than what we've had until now. The buff was needed, it was just to big initially.

[Sesamee]

I'm curious how many people saying our self healing was OP actually pvp on the beta in pvp gear? And which classes did you find it OP against?

[Albain]

Spirit bond was still OP in PVP - for the pet, mostly. For the player, slightly less so, as if a weaker HoT were constantly ticking on us, about 5-6k every 2 secs was what I observed. Nothing could kill my pet even without the glyph that makes your pet unkillable during Bestial Wrath, with disengage's 15% + 10% to all healing glyph + 3% healing every 2 seconds, it took longer for a pair of rogues to kill me than it took them to kill a healadin. ... If that helps in perspective. And when I got an actual heal on top of it? ..yeah.

I admit freely I don't PVP much, and don't know if this is a constant thing, that was just one afternoon of futzing around. For a while being insanely difficult to kill was fun, but then I got bored, and went back to archaeologying.

It's possible the disengage cut is too much, but hopefully if it is, it'll get better balanced before the end of beta. I'd rather not see hunters bottomrung yet again. The downside is it feels like being hit by a baseball bat; nobody likes being nerfed, whether or not it's genuinely needed.

[Ellaran]

The biggest problem is Blizzard expects a skill to operate in the same capacity in both PvE and PvP settings, and many skill just don't work the same for both. Something that's near-useless in PvE can be game-breaking in PvP and vice versa. BM Hunters were horribly crippled thanks to Arena and the non-hunters screaming for our blood because we dared to find a way to defeat the cookie-cutter Arena team at the time.

We have PvE and PvP armors, now we need to separate the PvE and PvP aspects of skills and talents, if for no other reason than to stop screwing over PvE'ers because of what happens in PvP and vice versa.

[Gimlion]

The biggest problem is Blizzard expects a skill to operate in the same capacity in both PvE and PvP settings, and many skill just don't work the same for both. Something that's near-useless in PvE can be game-breaking in PvP and vice versa. BM Hunters were horribly crippled thanks to Arena and the non-hunters screaming for our blood because we dared to find a way to defeat the cookie-cutter Arena team at the time.

We have PvE and PvP armors, now we need to separate the PvE and PvP aspects of skills and talents, if for no other reason than to stop screwing over PvE'ers because of what happens in PvP and vice versa.

What makes it worse, is blizzard has proven they can separate abilities in PvP from PvE, because stuns and other certain CCs (such as Sap) do not last as long against enemy players as they do against mobs, so I don't understand why they can't do this more, by adapting abilities for each setting.

[Ellaran]

The biggest problem is Blizzard expects a skill to operate in the same capacity in both PvE and PvP settings, and many skill just don't work the same for both. Something that's near-useless in PvE can be game-breaking in PvP and vice versa. BM Hunters were horribly crippled thanks to Arena and the non-hunters screaming for our blood because we dared to find a way to defeat the cookie-cutter Arena team at the time.

We have PvE and PvP armors, now we need to separate the PvE and PvP aspects of skills and talents, if for no other reason than to stop screwing over PvE'ers because of what happens in PvP and vice versa.

What makes it worse, is blizzard has proven they can separate abilities in PvP from PvE, because stuns and other certain CCs (such as Sap) do not last as long against enemy players as they do against mobs, so I don't understand why they can't do this more, by adapting abilities for each setting.

Sadly, the phrase "They're lazy" seems to be applicable here. If asked, they'd likely respond with "It takes too much time/work that we can't afford/don't have enough people for", the same response updated character models got, or "It would be too difficult/confusing/pointless to implement".

[Galaxy]

All classes have some form of healing, some like dks, pallies, warriors, rogues have way to much self healing.

Self healing in pve is still really needed kalli, cause even though the boss itself may not be targetting me, there could be aoes (like ultra) to numerous adds to tank (like yorsh) or multiple things that will hurt you if you touch them. And any little heal will help the healers.

Precisely my point, just far better communication <3

[Kalliope]

Self healing in pve is still really needed kalli, cause even though the boss itself may not be targetting me, there could be aoes (like ultra) to numerous adds to tank (like yorsh) or multiple things that will hurt you if you touch them. And any little heal will help the healers.

As marks, I already have a decent amount of self-healing with chimera shot. BM hunters also can get spirit beast heals. Surv hunters are the ones still getting screwed on that front; they have to depend on talents. While disengage isn't exactly the most practical source of healing in PvE, it's still a factor to consider. Spirit bond is no longer BM only; it's something that all hunters can get. There's more balancing at work than people seem to be remembering here.

Yes, any little heal will help the healers. Spirit bond does exactly that: a little heal. The way it was prior to getting knocked down, it was too powerful, especially for PvE.

[Worba]

That's funny... I thought hunters were supposedly OP in PVP these days. Huh.

Well I'm sure there'll be more fine tuning to come!

[Galaxy]

Yes, however if BM hunters have to use a different pet due to needed raid buffs, you might not have that little heal from your spirit beasts during those aoe PVE moments. Unless you mean we should dismiss the Silithid/corehound/etc, call the spirit beast, heal, dismiss, then recall silithid/corehound/etc. (as an example)

[Kalliope]

Yes, however if BM hunters have to use a different pet due to needed raid buffs, you might not have that little heal from your spirit beasts during those aoe PVE moments. Unless you mean we should dismiss the Silithid/corehound/etc, call the spirit beast, heal, dismiss, then recall silithid/corehound/etc. (as an example)

No, that would be silly.

Basically, what it comes down to is this: if we're only talking about a raid here, let the healers do their jobs. If people are dying to AoE attacks, there is an execution issue someplace in the raid (and not necessarily on the healers' part - sometimes dps just does not know how to avoid standing in things).

I don't buy the argument that everyone needs to bring their own healing for raids. Sure, every little bit helps, but ultimately, everyone just needs to do their jobs well, and pure dps classes should be dpsing.

[Worba]

I don't buy the argument that everyone needs to bring their own healing for raids. Sure, every little bit helps, but ultimately, everyone just needs to do their jobs well, and pure dps classes should be dpsing.

A-freakin-men to that statement.

And it's not just raids - you will occasionally run into individuals in pugs who think healers should only heal DPS who can't heal themselves.

You wouldn't ask a healer to help with DPS when he's not healing - yet sadly there are some who (not aimed at anyone in this thread) still think DPS should help heal.

Healer's mana is for healing. DPS' focus is for DPS. Having an offrole spell in the spellbook <> obligation to cover both (let alone the ability to, when you factor spec efficiencies).

I have a couple healers, so I know from experience that yes it can be challenging to switch back and forth between the tank and the DPS to prevent anyone from dying when lots of people are taking damage at once, but it doesn't stop being your job just because it's hard to multitask. Unfortunately all too many DPS put up with this nonsense and so it sometimes becomes ingrained. >.>

EDIT: this is not to say healers should be required to heal pets - I'm just talking about keeping the players themselves standing.

[Sasrei]

Actually alot of the raids some damage is not at all avoidable, like constant AoE that has nothing at all to do with standing in anything bad or failing mechanics. As well as dots, or spells that are casted on players and can not avoid it.

Alot of dps classes have some form of self healing so you cant just say that dps should focus on dps only when quite a few dps classes have it, in pvp it would help A TON as alot of the time I do get bgs without any healers or healers. Even if your class could heal as an heal in a healing spec, if they are considered dps then they should be dps only.

And for raids think of it this way, the less time they spend on me the more time they can spend on the tanks or actually healing themselves. Sometimes healers eat it cause they are busy healing the tanks or dps and not themselves, any form of self heal would help. Heck I use lifeblood a ton just to try and survive. Plus it would help with fights that has a ton of adds as self healing would help me survive my ticking off the adds to get them off the healers.

For raid progression ANY help, will help. A dead dps = NO dps. And actually ive had healers to help out a bit on dps lol.

[Worba]

I'm not saying healers never help on DPS, I'm saying they shouldn't. You get crossover all the time, like gung ho tanks who overpull to drive up their AOE DPS, or etc.

Some crossover is understandable like how holy pallies need to drop a judgement once in a while to keep their haste / mana regen buff going, or how a DPS with heals should still be ready to prop themself up with the occasional LoH or bubble in an emergency, but that's the exception not the rule - to wit if your healer is placing even competitively let alone topping the DPS then something is very, very wrong.

[Sesamee]

Yes, however if BM hunters have to use a different pet due to needed raid buffs, you might not have that little heal from your spirit beasts during those aoe PVE moments. Unless you mean we should dismiss the Silithid/corehound/etc, call the spirit beast, heal, dismiss, then recall silithid/corehound/etc. (as an example)

No, that would be silly.

Basically, what it comes down to is this: if we're only talking about a raid here, let the healers do their jobs. If people are dying to AoE attacks, there is an execution issue someplace in the raid (and not necessarily on the healers' part - sometimes dps just does not know how to avoid standing in things).

I don't buy the argument that everyone needs to bring their own healing for raids. Sure, every little bit helps, but ultimately, everyone just needs to do their jobs well, and pure dps classes should be dpsing.

I agree with this. Self heals are really more of an issue for pvp since some classes have a boatload of them and others get shafted. If you're dying in a raid there are other issues going on and a self heal won't really help. Although I do notice a slight difference in survivability on my lock vs hunter. It's not that important in pve though.

[Sasrei]

What I am saying that some raids have multiple aoe going on constantly that you cant do anything about, or certain spells that target individuals. I for one, dont understand why people wouldnt want some form of self heal. I dont like dying really, its not fun. Permanent FD.. isnt good. For raid progression as in heroics and what not, it would help alot. Especially on certain key fights.

And not only would self heals help with raid/pvp but also if you enjoy soloing dungeons/old raids. Tanking/dpsing at the same time isnt the easiest for some people.

If your opinion is that healers should only heal then all other dps classes shouldnt have any form of heals..

[Worba]

But that defeats / ignores the whole purpose of having specs - sure many classes have base spells that allow them to cover a couple different roles to some degree, and in unusual circumstances you may need to fall back on them. But then your talent spec takes one of those potential roles and raises it far above the others, and allows you to specialize enough to be useful in a group or raid context.

Now if you feel you can do that role well enough to also be able to cross over and help with DPS or tanking, that's fine but it's not *required* (outside of very unusual fight mechanics, which would again be the extreme exception not the rule).

[Sasrei]

All im saying is a self heal would be nice, doesnt have to be something huge just something that may help me live a few extra seconds more for the healer to heal me. Its not like anyone is asking to be able to heal other people, just a form of healing yourself. I dont get the whole "healing yourself, isnt something a dps class should do". Cause rogues/locks have been doing it for a long time, dks to so..