Nerf to Hunter self-healing

[Kalliope]

What I am saying that some raids have multiple aoe going on constantly that you cant do anything about, or certain spells that target individuals.

Execution, execution, execution. NO ONE should be dying to that stuff unless the raid (or individuals in the raid) are doing something wrong. Blizzard designs encounters to be challenging, not impossible. If an encounter is impossible (like, say, HEROIC DEADMINES PRE-NERF), then the group's gear level isn't there. If there's constant damage going on, then the group is expected to handle it. Period. The dps needs to group up to make it easier on the healer (or spread out so damage doesn't chain, whatever the mechanic of the fight is). If you have a self-heal to assist, that's great, but whatever healing you are doing is not going to make a significant difference in the fight. You are going to require healing from the healers regardless. If the dps being able to heal themselves is making or breaking a fight for a group, then there is something going wrong in the execution.

I for one, dont understand why people wouldnt want some form of self heal.

One of the reasons I enjoy marks and hate surv. But I never said in Naxx (when I was forced surv) that we would not have wiped if I could heal myself. It just doesn't work that way.

[Worba]

All im saying is a self heal would be nice, doesnt have to be something huge just something that may help me live a few extra seconds more for the healer to heal me. Its not like anyone is asking to be able to heal other people, just a form of healing yourself. I dont get the whole "healing yourself, isnt something a dps class should do". Cause rogues/locks have been doing it for a long time, dks to so..

We're kind of talking about 2 different things - I'm not saying DPS should be denied the ability to heal themselves in an emergency or when they're solo'ing, I'm talking about group role e.g. what you're expected to do in a group, where mana (and GCD, channel time etc) spent by a DPS role on a heal spell is not available for DPS.

Not saying you shouldn't have an emergency heal as a fallback; it's just not something that others should expect you to do, as in: healer refuses to heal you because you've got a spirit beast, or because you're a hybrid class, or etc.

[Kalliope]

All im saying is a self heal would be nice, doesnt have to be something huge just something that may help me live a few extra seconds more for the healer to heal me. Its not like anyone is asking to be able to heal other people, just a form of healing yourself. I dont get the whole "healing yourself, isnt something a dps class should do". Cause rogues/locks have been doing it for a long time, dks to so..

We're kind of talking about 2 different things - I'm not saying DPS should be denied the ability to heal themselves in an emergency or when they're solo'ing, I'm talking about group role e.g. what you're expected to do in a group, where mana (and GCD, channel time etc) spent by a DPS role on a heal spell is not available for DPS.

Not saying you shouldn't have an emergency heal as a fallback; it's just not something that others expect you to do, as in: healer refuses to heal you because you've got a spirit beast, or because you're a hybrid class, or etc.

Well-said, Worba.

I never expect feral druids to pop out to depoison a group when I'm on my priest (though I certainly heap praise on the cats who do that in five mans <3).
I don't expect dps to offheal, though I am always pleasantly surprised in an emergency when they step up.
I do expect pet classes to watch out for their pets (the whirlwind is BAD, kitty), though I am the sort of healer who does heal pets whenever possible.

I don't care whether a hunter can heal himself or not. The heals are so small that they don't matter.

[Sesamee]

What I am saying that some raids have multiple aoe going on constantly that you cant do anything about, or certain spells that target individuals. I for one, dont understand why people wouldnt want some form of self heal. I dont like dying really, its not fun. Permanent FD.. isnt good. For raid progression as in heroics and what not, it would help alot. Especially on certain key fights.

You are correct that in some fights there is unavoidable damage. This is the healers job to deal with. DPS should do their part by taking as little avoidable damage as possible and using defensive cd's wisely but the rest is the responsibility of the healers.

Having self heals as DPS in a pve environment is nice but not necessary so it wouldn't be wise for Blizz to balance classes or encounters around self heals there. Pvp is another story but since Bliz won't separate pvp and pve skills the waters do get kind of murky. Yes, in this thread I am arguing that hunters need more self healing and that the recent Beta nerfs to it were excessive, but that's based on pvp not pve. We're fine in pve as far as survivability goes.

[Sasrei]

I dont think I ever said anything about self heals being even close to the capability of heals that a healer has, nor did I say you should be expected to heal,. Who said anything about that? As a dps I am expected to dps and try to survive, using whatever means possible in doing so. Detterence, most of the time usually wont save you, especially from AOE damage that is constant and have absoultely nothing about fail mechanics. Raptor strike was fine but in MOP is no longer available. For raid progression I want to do everything I can possibly do in order to progress, especially when your first starting out in a new dungeon. Any form of healing or damage mitigation would help the healers save mana and concentrate on saving the tank. Plus I do enjoy soloing dungeons so I would enjoy the self heal, especially considering my pet tank can have issues at times. In pvp it would be vital. In pve do I NEED it desperately no, but would I like it? Yes. Cant dps if I am dead you know, whether or not its fail mechanics when your learning something new or just stuff you cant avoid, having this extra healing would slightly increase my chances of living. I like that. Unless I you know become the living bomb and blow up the raid..

Since MoP is all about choices, the current self heals you dont have to pick (unless your MM then chimera shot is a given) so if you dont want them, dont pick them.

[Worba]

I dont think I ever said anything about self heals being even close to the capability of heals that a healer has, nor did I say you should be expected to heal,. Who said anything about that?

I was responding to a general concern / cautionary note from Kalliope:

I don't buy the argument that everyone needs to bring their own healing for raids. Sure, every little bit helps, but ultimately, everyone just needs to do their jobs well, and pure dps classes should be dpsing.

At least as I took it, this is to say that 1) self heals are ok, just so long as they're not strong enough to make you significantly less reliant on healers - after all they are healers and should be relied on as such, and 2) you want to also be careful of people who currently believe healing is a shared responsibility that eclipses a player's selected group role, and who would view any significant increase in self-heals as supporting their position.

(#2 is where my strongest feelings lie and I may have read that into her statement...)

[Makoes]

I think I will be happy with any self heal that is currently better then what we have on live. As a dps class with no healing spec, the ability to heal is not a focus for the class. I find the current (live) healing to be sufficient for both pve and pvp, because I have learned to work with what I have rather then focus on what others have that I dont.

[Kalliope]

I dont think I ever said anything about self heals being even close to the capability of heals that a healer has, nor did I say you should be expected to heal,. Who said anything about that?

I was responding to a general concern / cautionary note from Kalliope:

I don't buy the argument that everyone needs to bring their own healing for raids. Sure, every little bit helps, but ultimately, everyone just needs to do their jobs well, and pure dps classes should be dpsing.

At least as I took it, this is to say that 1) self heals are ok, just so long as they're not strong enough to make you significantly less reliant on healers - after all they are healers and should be relied on as such, and 2) you want to also be careful of people who currently believe healing is a shared responsibility that eclipses a player's selected group role, and who would view any significant increase in self-heals as supporting their position.

(#2 is where my strongest feelings lie and I may have read that into her statement...)

Absolutely right on both counts!

In MoP, hunters have multiple ways of helping the healers out:

• Spirit Bond (talent) - passive - Constant 1% HoT on you and your pet.
• Exhilaration (talent) - active - You're healed for 5% of your health when you disengage: any time that you would need to use this, you'll likely have the space to do it and you should be able to cast instants while getting back into position.
• Glyph of Animal Bond - passive - All healing done to you and your pet is increased by 10%.
  
  And, to be fully inclusive....
• Glyph of Mend Pet - active - 50% chance of each mend pet tick to remove a debuff from your pet: if you're removing debuffs from your pet, the priest's mass dispel might save another player that much faster.

I'm not even including chimera shot and spirit mend because those are spec specific. The big thing to notice here is that a good deal of our self-healing is passive and largely invisible. Constant 1% ticks add up over the course of a boss fight. The increased healing taken glyph is pretty amazing. You're making the healers' heals more effective without either of you doing anything extra during the fight. Both help the healers spend less mana on you. Disengage is nice for the occasional burst heal, a little bonus heal while you're moving out of an AoE quickly (sweet, sweet damage avoidance) that helps the healers get you back to full even faster.

TL;DR: we get lots of ways of helping the healers; they're just (mostly) passive. But they are there.

[Gimlion]

The problem with both talents as they are now, though, is that I feel they are largely underwhelming, particularly in PvP. I've fought DK's that would not drop below 90% on their own. I've fought WL's with huge resilience and stamina Soul Draining through entire fights, and not even approach death. As it stands, AotIH is just too much better than Spirit Bond to not take for PvP (unless you really want those CD shorteners). Also, a 5% heal every CD is just not comparable to what other classes have. That's my concern to these nerfs.

I can't say much along the lines of PvE, as I have not raided since ToC, but I do know that classes who can heal themselves in some way tend to survive more, and that it certainly doesn't hurt to have those heals. If a healer doesn't heal the party (if that's there job, pending on whether there are multiple heals or not) because they assume every class should be able to heal itself, that's bad healing, and is no ones fault but the healers. I understand not healing someone who continues to stand in fire, but if the passive AoE damage is excessive, healing the group up IS a priority. Heals that give us a touch of PvE survivability are nice, not necessary, but not OP.

[Kalliope]

Oh, absolutely, Gim. That's why I've been saying from the beginning that the issue with the heals being passive/small/non-bursty is a PvP issue, not a raiding one.

[Sesamee]

I find the current (live) healing to be sufficient for both pve and pvp, because I have learned to work with what I have rather then focus on what others have that I dont.

Well for pvp what you have vs what another class has is kind of a big deal. If representation in high ranking pvp were equal among all the classes then there wouldn't really be an issue. But it's far from it. Hunters are way underrepresented compared to classes like DK's, spriests, mages, warriors, etc. There are clearly classes who excel at pvp and those who have a tougher time of it...to put it mildly. What they have that hunters don't have is what makes them, in general, better at pvp than us. And that's an issue for me.

I realize the game is not balanced 1v1 and I'm fine with that but the disparity in numbers between hunters and other classes that make it to the top echelons of pvp shows that hunters do need some help. IMO, that help should come in the form of self heals that are on par with what other classes have and ways to CC that don't involve doing zero damage to the cc'd target.

[Makoes]

When it comes to pvp, you have to break it down even further between BG's and VS'.
In BG's I have very little trouble staying alive or healing myself, in VS' though, I find the only problem I really face is the ranged issue, which wont be a problem in MoP. Healing gets a bit more tight in VS, but VS' also depends on group make-up.

I am not saying that a buff to our healing is bad, but I am saying that its not as bad as people are trying to make it out to be. Mountains out of Molehills.

Just think of a class like the mage, who can only heal while casting the interuptable evocate, but only if they are glyphed into it to heal. Yet Mages rule in pvp, especially as frost.

[Sasrei]

People heal in bgs? Really? seriously? why wasnt I told this.. i'd say for sure if anything up it for pvp since people have this mentality of hunters before FC/healers. Gotta say I kinda make a bee line for the hunter if there are no healers/fc around.. so guilty as charged but they.. is.. squishy.

[Kalliope]

People heal in bgs? Really? seriously? why wasnt I told this.. i'd say for sure if anything up it for pvp since people have this mentality of hunters before FC/healers. Gotta say I kinda make a bee line for the hunter if there are no healers/fc around.. so guilty as charged but they.. is.. squishy.

Sure, because hunters are a ranged class and not healers. That's just how it goes.

I will withhold my rant about warlocks.

People "aren't healing" in bgs because there aren't nearly as many healers in some bgs as there should be. It's more fun smashing people in the face than keeping people alive....well, for most, anyway. So there are often bgs with no healers, or not enough of them. GG, just have to adapt by either grouping up and facerolling the opposition (the best defense is a good offense) or run as much as possible.

[Gimlion]

People heal in bgs? Really? seriously? why wasnt I told this.. i'd say for sure if anything up it for pvp since people have this mentality of hunters before FC/healers. Gotta say I kinda make a bee line for the hunter if there are no healers/fc around.. so guilty as charged but they.. is.. squishy.

I agree, I shoot for Hunters and usually rogues, because they tend to be the most annoying for me aside from healers.

[Sesamee]

If we had the pvp arsenal that Frost mages do we wouldn't need self heals. If Blizz wants to give us that level of utility and turn us into the pvp God class of several expansions I have no problem with that. Even if it's just in one spec. Since that is unlikely I'd like some competitive self healing. I think if they can get our healing right and add in some dodge protection against melee we are looking to be really good. Not OP but competitive.

I'm not satisfied with merely sucking a little less than before. I want Hunters to actually live up to our potential in pvp. We have some good utility with amazing potental. It just needs to be complemented with a little more survivability and tweaked a bit to take us from one of the worst pvp classes to one of the best.

[Worba]

It seems like no matter what they do, the closer things get to perfect on one side of the PVE/PVP scale for a given class, the closer things tend to move toward broke on the other. It's like we're eachother's ball & chain.

Here's hoping though.

[Kalliope]

We're kind of not far off from frost mages, certainly not from a marks perspective (and that's been our definitive PvP spec for the most part for years). Both are pet classes that rely on snares and control. We're going to be picking up a possible talented snare->stun in MoP. We don't lose much when silenced and can't be locked out of a spell tree. Now that we won't have a dead zone, casters are roundly going to hate us even more. They can only escape us through CC, stuns, and LoS.

This is going to be awesome.

[Sasrei]

I agree kalli! No more frost mage freezing me in place and running around me laughing...
Sucking less in pvp would be great! cause geez that can get frustrating..

[Sesamee]

We're kind of not far off from frost mages, certainly not from a marks perspective (and that's been our definitive PvP spec for the most part for years). Both are pet classes that rely on snares and control. We're going to be picking up a possible talented snare->stun in MoP. We don't lose much when silenced and can't be locked out of a spell tree. Now that we won't have a dead zone, casters are roundly going to hate us even more. They can only escape us through CC, stuns, and LoS.

This is going to be awesome.

I agree we share some similarities but we're nowhere near them in terms of pvp effectiveness. We should close the gap in MoP though by quite a bit. Esp if they give us self heals that are actually attractive enough to talent into. But yeah, pvp on Beta already feels so much better than it does on live right now. I hope it continues.