New with so many question

[Minzel]

Hey, I guess I'm going to be that annoying person of the day whom is coming here asking stupid questions as their first post, but forgive me in advance! I have recently got back into WoW and wandered on to leveling my hunter up to 90 (yey!) But I have found myself less confident with her ... I don't feel like I know what I'm doing at all! So I thought it might be best to come to a more active Hunter Forum then trying my luck on MMO-Champions or even the WoW Forums (plus your all really sweet and kind here!)
So upon my return a few friends came back and we started a guild of our own and want to get into raiding before WoD but sadly I feel like I'm lacking DPS and people kept telling me most the SoO bosses are like a DPS race and people need to be doing 200k (but I doubt the world first kill had that I can't really comment as I wasn't playing at the time.)
So I fear it might be my spec or my rotation or not using the right reforging or enchants even gemming I fully doubt myself on my hunter now.
So here comes the questions~ (I did try to look these up here but I just found level 85 things and flight rising sorry if I sucked at finding them!)
1. What is the top DPS hunter spec right now?
2. Any chance for a link to a guide or a page about it? (like to explain things and such)
3. If none of the above are the BM spec anyone know of a good place to find out about it? (I got attached to it what can I say)

Thank you for your time And sorry if your all sick of these kinda questions, just I want to be in the top 5 dps at least and not feel like they are carrying me, since well they can be a lil' harsh over things and liek to complain alot over stupid things >.<

[Lisaara]

Welcome!

1. BM is top unless you're into heroic progression raiding, then SV squeaks ahead.
2. Icy-Veins.com
3. See 2.

But honestly hun, play the spec YOU want to play. You'll do a lot better playing a spec you know and have a good feel for rather than a spec you don't like or are clueless about. Trust me. When Boomkin was best in cata and wrath, while others could excel at it, I couldn't. I was an utter failure at it and I hate the spec. Despite that, I was a very good cat druid. Cat druids were considered a crap spec in Wrath. Well guess who was in the top 5 dps in ICC25. *points to herself* This gal, right here.

[Myrrmi]

1. I think survival scores the highest right now, but BM is not that bad either.
2. IcyVeins - love it or hate it, you still use it
http://www.icy-veins.com/survival-hunte ... -dps-guide
3. same as above: IcyVeins
http://www.icy-veins.com/beast-mastery- ... -dps-guide

As for dps requirements, well... I guess that 200k could be a hc requirement, surely not for normal mode.
I play BM (always have, always will), have 550ilvl, do around 130-150k dps (while wowprogress sims me at over 230k), I know I'm still far from trully mastering the class - things like lining-up cds to procs and using cds on cd (and sometimes remembering to hav my aspect up /lol) are still work in progress for me.
I occasionally raid in a fresh recruits/casual noobs 10m/flex group. Consistently we only have like 4-6 people with 100k+ dps, depending on who can come, none of us even close to the 200k mark, but we have yet to wipe due to lack of dps. We haven't yet gone to far, though (WTB normal-capable tanks, will take a dozen, just in case) so probably later it gets a bit more hairy...

[Danielfboone]

I have an Ilvl of 535 now after getting my legendary cape and I still don't do anything near to 200k dps as either BM or SV. I do a little more as BM simply because I find it easier to play with fewer buttons needed. It is my favorite spec by far too so I stick with it. I have only done LFR raids and I'm always somewhere in the top 5 dps doing now on average 135-145k. I might try flex at some point but I also might sit back and play other games now until WoD comes out.

Play the spec you want and don't worry about that 200k number. The only Hunters I have seen do that are ones in SV spec who pretty much just spam Multishot, Fervor, and Cobra Shot every time adds come out or on trash leading up to the next boss. BM can also put up high numbers in those situations by spamming Multi and Cobra and ignoring Arcane completely. Of course you also have to use either Dire Beast or Fervor to help gain focus back. If and when you get the legendary cape, you can put up some unbelievable numbers in AOE situations.

[Lisaara]

I have an Ilvl of 535 now after getting my legendary cape and I still don't do anything near to 200k dps as either BM or SV. I do a little more as BM simply because I find it easier to play with fewer buttons needed. It is my favorite spec by far too so I stick with it. I have only done LFR raids and I'm always somewhere in the top 5 dps doing now on average 135-145k. I might try flex at some point but I also might sit back and play other games now until WoD comes out.

Play the spec you want and don't worry about that 200k number. The only Hunters I have seen do that are ones in SV spec who pretty much just spam Multishot, Fervor, and Cobra Shot every time adds come out or on trash leading up to the next boss. BM can also put up high numbers in those situations by spamming Multi and Cobra and ignoring Arcane completely. Of course you also have to use either Dire Beast or Fervor to help gain focus back. If and when you get the legendary cape, you can put up some unbelievable numbers in AOE situations.

Your average is really good and what I've seen most regardless of hunter spec. The only time I've seen hunters hit 200k+ is at the very beginning with a lot of burst damage but it's never sustained.

[peanutbuttercup]

1. Depends on gear and encounter. I would say BM until you get 4 piece tier 16, then Surv moves ahead. That said... I have the 4 piece and still play BM for *most* encounters. For specific fights I use Surv and have it set up to do just those fights.

2. Neither is really up to date (EJ looks updated but they've skipped patches at times) but they still work to give you a general idea of rotations and things: http://www.warcrafthuntersunion.com/wow-hunter-guides/ and http://forums.elitistjerks.com/index.ph ... 9-hunters/

3. Unless you're looking at very high level raiding where ever single point of DPS counts, there's no reason to not be BM if that's what you are comfortable with. If you want proof, let's see... our last normal Malkorok kill (closest thing I could find to a single target, tank & spank type fight) I pulled 233k at ilvl 560. Which is lower than it should be but I fully admit I'm inconsistent with my numbers (did 246 and 241k previous weeks... wow I'm getting worse).

BM can also put up high numbers in those situations by spamming Multi and Cobra and ignoring Arcane completely.

Obviously this reflects a difference in gear but with 2 piece tier 16 you'll want to spam Arcane in single target fights. My logs for that same fight above, Arcane topped my damage dealt at 28% of player damage.

[Minzel]

Wow so many replies >u< Thank you all for help and making me feel a little better about my wee little hunter Even those little tips might help me out
And yeah I know I should play how I want but sadly my friends don't seem to log on much and just expect to raid (I hardly flex but I do dip into it now and then!)
And those links :O I love you all for them <3 Hopefully I can make some changes

[Danielfboone]

1. Depends on gear and encounter. I would say BM until you get 4 piece tier 16, then Surv moves ahead. That said... I have the 4 piece and still play BM for *most* encounters. For specific fights I use Surv and have it set up to do just those fights.

2. Neither is really up to date (EJ looks updated but they've skipped patches at times) but they still work to give you a general idea of rotations and things: http://www.warcrafthuntersunion.com/wow-hunter-guides/ and http://forums.elitistjerks.com/index.ph ... 9-hunters/

3. Unless you're looking at very high level raiding where ever single point of DPS counts, there's no reason to not be BM if that's what you are comfortable with. If you want proof, let's see... our last normal Malkorok kill (closest thing I could find to a single target, tank & spank type fight) I pulled 233k at ilvl 560. Which is lower than it should be but I fully admit I'm inconsistent with my numbers (did 246 and 241k previous weeks... wow I'm getting worse).

BM can also put up high numbers in those situations by spamming Multi and Cobra and ignoring Arcane completely.

Obviously this reflects a difference in gear but with 2 piece tier 16 you'll want to spam Arcane in single target fights. My logs for that same fight above, Arcane topped my damage dealt at 28% of player damage.

I was talking about AOE situations, not single target. Obviously you want to use Arcane as much as you can on single targets, especially during Bestial Wrath. In AOE situations, it can cause a loss of dps because it uses focus which could be better utilized by multi-shot/Beast Cleave. Especially since they upped it's focus cost to 30 from 20.

What I do in AOE/multi-target situations is place an Explosive Trap, spam Multi as much as possible using Cobra and Dire Beast to help regain focus (Rapid Fire also helps) and also use Glaive Toss when available. Throw in Kill Command and Kill Shot if I can as well. The flurry proc from the legendary cape is also a huge boost in those situations. You just don't have enough focus to use Arcane.

[peanutbuttercup]

Obviously this reflects a difference in gear but with 2 piece tier 16 you'll want to spam Arcane in single target fights. My logs for that same fight above, Arcane topped my damage dealt at 28% of player damage.

I was talking about AOE situations, not single target. Obviously you want to use Arcane as much as you can on single targets, especially during Bestial Wrath. In AOE situations, it can cause a loss of dps because it uses focus which could be better utilized by multi-shot/Beast Cleave. Especially since they upped it's focus cost to 30 from 20.

What I do in AOE/multi-target situations is place an Explosive Trap, spam Multi as much as possible using Cobra and Dire Beast to help regain focus (Rapid Fire also helps) and also use Glaive Toss when available. Throw in Kill Command and Kill Shot if I can as well. The flurry proc from the legendary cape is also a huge boost in those situations. You just don't have enough focus to use Arcane.

Right, single target. In terms of dps logging it's best to use a single target fight as reference (something like Paragons conversely is a terrible way to check dps, because that only encourages multi-dotting targets that'll heal up anyways, just to increase numbers on logs). On a very short burst, mutli-dotting (i.e. big pack of trash mobs) as explained above, even BM can easily hit 1 million dps since we don't target cap.

My point was simply that you don't need to look at trash packs to say a hunter can hit 200k. At the end of last tier of raiding, ToT, I got up to about 190k single target and got nagged over how low my damage was.

(To OP, in case you're wondering why I mentioned Arcane spam, it's because the 2 piece set bonus lowers your CD on Rapid Fire, so I usually have Rapid Fire up about 25-30% of the time. Multi-shot does the same so of course I'd use that instead on mutli-target encounters.)

[Danielfboone]

It all depends what level of raiding you are doing. In Heroic raids, where everybody has the highest level gear, people can go over 200k regularly on single targets. I don't think the OP was talking about that level though. In LFR, 130k is in the high tier where you sometimes see people doing less than 75K. In flex, you would see a little more, and in Normal, even more than that. Heroic level is still only done by less than 5% of the player base.

I use femaledwarf.com to optimize my Hunter and if I can do 70% of what it shows as the max dps in a perfect fight where all procs are averaged out, all cooldowns are managed perfectly, and there are no gaps in damage dealing due to movement and repositioning, I feel I'm doing pretty well. It's a good reference tool for getting the most out of what you have.

[peanutbuttercup]

I haven't done LFR or flex this tier so I can't say what the numbers look like nowadays. But I would think if an entire LFR group is pulling over 100k that should easily be more than enough to down content, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

On normal, with toons that are pretty well geared, I'd say the expectation right now is over 200k for DPS classes. Heroic mode players with geared toons sim over 300k.

I know some of those numbers sound scary but it just shows you how much impact gear has and isn't a reflection on what kind of player you are!

Other sites that I've seen with simDPS would be world of logs (not good at using it so someone can correct me if I'm wrong) and wowprogress, which gives you a rough idea based on the gear and spec you log out with.

[Banard]

BM and Surv are on top it really depends on the fight. To get a idea how the specs are performing on each fight look at http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/ and play around with options. As people mention the 4 set bonus really makes a huge difference for Surv. Its best to know both specs. Some gear sets MM theoretical is best by a few hundred dps but its so easy to bugger up it isn't practical. See raidbots for proof.

Next: Tombs of clear mind. Brings stacks to a raid, you should be switching talents on almost every fight. For example, crows are optimal for DPS...but on spoils with all the target switching does anything really stay alive to get the full dot of crows? For this i would select blink strike. Fights were there are a lot of adds to kill, barrage over glaives etc etc. Talents should not remain the same from the beginning of the raid until the end of the raid.

Next..always be pressing something. A lot of time i see low dps hunter's its cause there activity is low. Recount will show you this. Look at the DPS meters and then look at activity. If yar not close to the value at the top of the list you found a key problem. If you are close, then the problem is something else, gear, rotation etc.

Next is position on the fight, bad position can cost ya a large chunk in DPS. This comes with XP on the fight and sometimes depends on yar raid leaders strategy.

DPS also really depends on ilevel and the gear getting you to that ilevel. We live in the world of inflation, i update my bracers i see a 1-2k increase but if i upgrade a trinket i see 10k+ upgrade. First and foremost if you do not have your legendary cloak chain complete do this.

Sites to get familiar with: www.femaledwarf.com, http://forums.elitistjerks.com/

Upload yourself into femaledwarf and run with optimal buffs and use your latency. How close are you to your theoretical max? Yes, its uses a tank and spank fight like patchwork but it provides you with a limit and gives you a ball park of where you should be. I.E if your limit is 200k and your doing 100k, then something is way off. If your doing 140-150K..you might be able to find improvements. If your 160-180K, then your doing pretty dam good.

[Danielfboone]

I have to admit that I never change talents. I pick what I like and use it everywhere. I very rarely make changes and when I do, they become the new permanent setting.

I also would never depend on sites like raidbots for anything. The numbers are always incredibly skewed towards the best players using what they consider to be the best specs. The players of other specs who get rated are almost always of a lower skill level to begin with so that really makes spec comparisons using sites like that completely invalid. You would need to see the best players using all the specs to make a comparison but that never happens. A site like femaledwarf, while not accurate in real encounters, provides a much better comparison of potential dps than something like raidbots does since you can sim out your max in every spec. I feel that if femaledwarf rates your max at 200k and you can do 140-150k in the game, you're doing okay. I also know that if my favorite spec,BM, is not on top but is within 5-7% of the top one, that I can still do better as BM because I can play it better and it does not penalize having to move as much as the other specs do. If you have to move to the extent that the only dps you're doing for a brief period is coming from your pet, obviously BM is going to win out.

To go somewhat off the topic (but not completely), admittedly this is all coming from the perspective of someone who has never done Heroic raiding and who hates that whole atmosphere of min-maxing and sitting people out or even kicking them from the raid or guild. I have never belonged to a guild like that and would never want to. I play games for fun, not as competition with others. Therefore, I never do Arenas and don't ever even attempt multi-player mode in other types of games. I play games like shooters at the easiest difficulty and still sometimes have problems finishing them. I'm not among the gaming elite by any means but I do feel that I represent the large majority of the playerbase of WoW.

[Banard]

I also would never depend on sites like raidbots for anything. The numbers are always incredibly skewed towards the best players using what they consider to be the best specs. The players of other specs who get rated are almost always of a lower skill level to begin with so that really makes spec comparisons using sites like that completely invalid.

This is a huge pet peeve of mine. People who *%(*& on numbers just because they think they understand some superficial reason.

#1) this only includes all the public logs, a lot of "best players" in "top guild" logs are not public.
#2) there are statistics as average, medium along with percentiles ...there are so many options. So compare the top 99%, then 90% then 75% then ...... does anything change, does one spec jump out of head?
#3) further more if you set average DPS for normal 25 man and set the sample for the last two weeks and compare specs you think any of the best players using the best specs are in that sample?
#4) Now look at H 25 man garrosh..see any data? No why? because of the sample definition.

There is no better tool to use to understand live DPS numbers. And raidbots have no "rating" , world of logs has ranking...and that is something different.

I advise you to look over the site and learn what information it can tell you. Instead of spreading your book burning ways.

[Danielfboone]

No matter how you do it with a site like that you end up with skewed numbers overly favoring the "spec of the month". It's well known and is why Blizzard always advises to take those numbers with a huge dose of salt. Even the lesser skilled players will follow the lead of the "elite". I still say that for comparison purposes, a simulation that shows the max dps possible under ideal conditions and with all randomization averaged out is still the best measuring stick. There are too many variables and too much randomization in "live" numbers for them really to mean much in the limited data set that any data collection site will have. None are perfect and nobody has more data than Blizzard themselves. Trust them, they know what's going on. Even a site like elitistjerks is frequently unreliable.

All 3 specs are currently viable and close. Marksman does trail the others by about 5% in simulations but that's still acceptable if it's the spec you can play the best. It's certainly the best position MM has been in for this expansion.

[Banard]

The whole world is skewed, all numbers are bad. Don't listen to anyone, all the tool they use are useless. (note the sarcasm) I didn't say only use Raidbots , it is a tool to be used with other tools. All in all, i'll leave you to your book burning way.

All 3 specs are currently viable and close. Marksman does trail the others by about 5% in simulations but that's still acceptable if it's the spec you can play the best. It's certainly the best position MM has been in for this expansion.

First, with the right options selected MM is the top spec by less than 1k dps. It is not 5% below, it is top. In practice , in live environments the spec becomes garbage. This is why you need to look at live numbers.Your welcome to believe otherwise.

And just to clarify the options to select are:
Disable Arcane Shot while Careful Aim is active
Disable Glaive Toss while Careful Aim is active
Aim Shot behavior: Manual and instant and set the speed to 1.5

I.e spam aim shot during careful aim and every time you are under the effects of rapid fire.


so...good-day.

[Lisaara]

MM is bottom of the pack. Even with raidbots. MM hasn't been top anything this whole expansion. Infact, it's been broken almost the whole expac. You can check Femaledwarf.com if you don't believe. MM hunters, any I've seen(which isn't many this expansion due to the spec not being great) can't even hit 200k dps where BM and SV can get there in burst very quickly.

That aside, I think a bit of calming down is in order cause a newbie to the forums was asking innocent questions and it's not right to scare them off with huffing and flaming because you don't agree with someone. So let's calm down and chillax.

[Castile]

Junrei is correct. MM has never ever been near the top this whole expac. This is coming from someone who raided and was pretty much forced to look at "the numbers" after each raid. So before you go slamming someone else please calm down and get your own facts straight.

OP: Bm is a very good spec to play and if you enjoy it stick with it But its your game so honestly unless your in a top guild or really want to own the meters play w/e spec you like best. My main is Bm and although I don't raid seriously anymore (and consider myself a rather average player) I can hit 170k dps on a boss fight. I've never seen the 200 mark personally but I'm sure its acheivable! (i have ilvl 542 gear)

All the sites ppl have mentioned are great helpers. AskMrRobot is also good for maximising your gear and working out what enchants/reforges you need too. Good luck in your huntering!

[Banard]

Ok, so i either cannot write (which is probably the case) or you two cannot read. Please go back and re-read what i said. In theory, MM is top. That is using femaledwarf. See my post about the options. Now its ahead by the other two spec by less than 1k which is nothing.

but in practice it becomes garbage because its such a complicated rotation. I mention this above to illustrate the power of raidbots, it gives you the tool to evaluate specs and how they are performing.

Furthermore, this also will depend on your latency. If you play around with that option you will also get different results.

[Danielfboone]

Ok, so i either cannot write (which is probably the case) or you two cannot read. Please go back and re-read what i said. In theory, MM is top. That is using femaledwarf. See my post about the options. Now its ahead by the other two spec by less than 1k which is nothing.

but in practice it becomes garbage because its such a complicated rotation. I mention this above to illustrate the power of raidbots, it gives you the tool to evaluate specs and how they are performing.

Furthermore, this also will depend on your latency. If you play around with that option you will also get different results.

I went in and applied the settings you suggested for MM and with my gear it still comes in last on femaledwarf but is only like 1.2% behind SV and essentially equal with BM. The problem is that actually playing the spec that way is impossible. I used settings that would approximate the way the specs could realistically be played by an average player and when set up that way, MM trails by 4-5 %. SV actually sims out on top but like I said earlier, I can get more out of BM in actual game play on single targets. It's also better on multiple targets than ever before.

If people find sites like raidbots, elitistjerks, or even Mr.robot helpful, that's great. Personally I have found inaccuracies in all of them and keep falling back to femaledwarf as the best tool for comparing specs, talents, pets, and gear. Elitistjerks isn't as much inaccurate as it is unrealistic. The ways they suggest to play, in my opinion, require superhuman abilities to make work. I know I can't do it anyway. I do find icyveins to be helpful at times but again I find different talent choices to better suit my abilities in a few cases. I don't use the absolute optimal settings in femaledwarf either. I use the ones closest to how I can actually play the specs. It doesn't really matter what others are able to do. It matters more what you have to do to achieve your own maximum potential. Because of that, no simulation or data gathering system can ever be perfect for all players.

Returning to the OP's original concerns, I would repeat, play how you enjoy it the most and can do the best and don't be overly concerned with how others do. Find a guild or group where the members are closer to your level and play with them. The game will be a lot more fun and a lot less stressful that way. Don't worry about how your group's progression rate stacks up against others. Who needs stress in a game? Most people play games to get away from all that. I know I do anyway.