Demand tome of cloud serpent.

[MaximumOverdrive]

My paper on why dragons should remain not tameable

Got an A on this despite argumentative papers aren't my strong point but seems I got good at it.

@Azu
I heard about that! That's like the worst sort of griefing there is!

Very nice paper! I agree with all of it as well. The draconic core hound is the closest to a dragon we have and probably will ever have, and I think that's mostly due to that creature being more core hound than dragon. Cloud serpents are intelligent and highly revered, and should never be tamable. I will never support taming of dragons or dragon-like creatures, as it completely destroys their awesomeness for me.

[Gazer]

Unfortunately there are many other examples of this but what is based of something in our world/history, but does not make it candid in WOW.

This is a Qilin as per OUR history



This in one in the world of warcraft...



The 1st is a what blizzard want to classify a Windstead



but it's very obviously a Qilin according to OUR history, and the 2nd is a Foo Dog.

While one can say something looks and feels like "XYZ" to me, that does not infer that one are correct or factual in relation to the information provided for this game. I'm simply just going of the black and white facts, as that is all we have on this topic, and that fact is...

• "We named them what we did to leave it nebulous. They aren't part of the whole Aspects scene."

To say they feel like a type of dragon, they are based of Chinese dragons, they should be dragons... from a general observation is completely justifiable, but it still does not mean they are. Therefore any lore/rules/arguments that anyone wishes to provide are at this point can not be substantiated according to the black and white facts.

Also saying that "Blizz has changed classifications before so they might do the same with these guys eventually." Saying they do it eventually is incorrectly inferring that they are and it was simply an oversite and they have made and error and will get around to fixing it someday, which is simply not true according to GC.

Also Junrei, you keep bringing up that one example again and again but the answer remains the same. http://forums.wow-petopia.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=21008

It's worth noting, cloud serpents are called Storm Dragons as well...so they are classified as a real dragon.

This is actually not proof, on several accounts.

"Storm Dragons" was a term used in a single quest and referred to a lightning version. If it was a general term for cloud serpents we would surely have seen it used elsewhere. But even if the word "dragon" was used in a common term for them, it wouldn't prove they are dragons. Their regular name has "serpent" in it but they're clearly not serpents either. Any more than Dragon Turtles are dragons, or Dragonhawks are either dragons or hawks.

But the final word goes to Ghostcrawler, who said in a Tweet:

@Ghostcrawler Hey GC, my friend keeps saying the cloud serpents arent dragons. Are they considered dragons in WoW lore?

@kuzanagi2010 we named them what we did to leave it nebulous. They aren't part of the whole Aspects scene.

In other words Blizzard has very deliberately steered away from either defining them as dragons or saying they aren't related to dragons. Anyone is welcome to have their own theories, but there is no proof either way for the simple reason that Blizzard intends for there to be no proof either way.

I do get it, no they don't have to be tamable, they can be like Gryphons and the likes thats fine. The main point is, they are NOT dragons in wow and according to WOW lore, therefore can not be classified as such regarding any "rules" applied to dragons.

[Lisaara]

My paper on why dragons should remain not tameable

Got an A on this despite argumentative papers aren't my strong point but seems I got good at it.

@Azu
I heard about that! That's like the worst sort of griefing there is!

Very nice paper! I agree with all of it as well. The draconic core hound is the closest to a dragon we have and probably will ever have, and I think that's mostly due to that creature being more core hound than dragon. Cloud serpents are intelligent and highly revered, and should never be tamable. I will never support taming of dragons or dragon-like creatures, as it completely destroys their awesomeness for me.

Thank you! I'm glad a few took the time to read it and that the reasons were strong enough. I made sure to double/triple check for as much proof as I could, which was hard considering the school blocked almost all game related websites. XD

@Gazer
Whole point isn't whether or not their classification is right or not. They are draconic in appearance and in their intellect regardless. Blizz's statement is just basically...."Only reason they're beasts is so they're separate from the aspects and their shtick". That's all. Nothing more. Nothing less. Most that are wanting cloud serpents tameable are reading far deeper into that quote than they should.

[Gazer]

@Gazer
Whole point isn't whether or not their classification is right or not. They are draconic in appearance and in their intellect regardless. Blizz's statement is just basically...."Only reason they're beasts is so they're separate from the aspects and their shtick". That's all. Nothing more. Nothing less. Most that are wanting cloud serpents tameable are reading far deeper into that quote than they should.

Yeah, that is the whole point, as that seems to be your argument and agenda that you are continually pushing, matter of factually by you even linking High school papers trying to back that exact argument.

This whole "intellect' thing also have NEVER been proven/established either regarding Cloud Serpents. Please point me in a direction that a cloud serpent (Not a Celestial) is any more intelligent than a Silithid, or a Spiritbeast? Sure they may be of a presumed higher intellect than a Moth or Crab, but you can't state as fact that their intellect is is that of a dragons, again thats very misleading. What part of them (other than looking similar to a chinese dragon) makes them of a higher intelligence? Is it Speech? There was a talking gorilla some time back, and it was even possible to tame it at one point.



So if Gorillas can talk that means they must all be sentient and removed as a tamable family?

Also one would assume that if a Cloud serpent was going to be intelligent and capable of speech, then why, according to the most current information regarding one as a mount with their new information notes, is that they actually can't....

• It is believed that Astral Cloud Serpents possess answers to some of life's greatest mysteries. Pity they can't talk.

Though I will consed it seems that Elegon can talk, as during the fight when it does, Lorwalker Cho says

Cho:

• "Magnificent! It Talks. This seems beyond what we thought the Mogo were capable of"

To be fair it's not really a standard Cloud Serpent to go by, that would be like saying Xuen is a standard Tiger. That and Elegon is made up of, or has been heavily modified by titan energies, it even sound like a Titan Machine. in fact at the end Lorewalker cho says

Cho:

• "The Machine has been destroyed, and so, the Mogu's power weakens."

Lastly please don't talk for blizzard saying "basically....Only reason they're beasts is so they're separate from the aspects and their shtick, That's all. Nothing more. Nothing less." doing so is spreading your option as cannon and is misleading and misinformation. That may or may not be the only reason, but as someone who does work for blizzard has already said on the matter, again I'll repeat in case it was missed...

GC:

• We named them what we did to leave it nebulous.

Nebulous, vague or ill-defined, they do not have any confirm definition, therefore they can not be defined as dragons... Simple.

Actually that is the whole point of this thread, this is not meant to be a debate about where or not Cloud serpents are Dragons or not which it has turned into (And yes I'm partially responsible too) so maybe the train should be popped back onto the rails now.

[Wain]

Yeah... it was a good English paper (though I believe you used the wrong "complement" ), but it was an argument (which is what it was intended for) and not a proof. Blizzard has said little enough on the issue that anyone can choose their examples to provide evidence of the outcomes they personally desire. Especially if the assessor has no independent knowledge of the subject. Using Yu'lon and Nalak as evidence that cloud serpents are intelligent is like using Niuzao and Torta as arguments for why all yaks and turtles must be intelligent. It doesn't mean that they aren't, and if you truly believe in your heart that they are then that's cool for you. But it's a matter of your brain filling in the blanks in the way you feel is probably right, compared to someone else whose brain is filling in the blanks in an entirely different way. In other words, the discussion here is reflective of 90% of the argument on the internet, and well, probably most religious disagreements too Each side believes in their hearts that their argument is the right one and can even cite evidence for that, and also feels the fervent need to convince the other side that they're wrong.

In the end none of it matters. Whether someone here wants to see them tameable or not is irrelevant in light of fact that they simply aren't, and have shown no sign of becoming tameable. People from both sides, express your point of view and move on. This debate has happened a few times already lately and if I see another thread I may just lock it at the start as it's the same people with the same arguments each time (and I'm aware I'm one of them!)

[SpiritBinder]

Each side believes in their hearts that their argument is the right one and can even cite evidence for that, and also feels the fervent need to convince the other side that they're wrong.

[Castile]

haha!! More like this..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WakP7VOjbA

[SpiritBinder]

haha!! More like this..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WakP7VOjbA

LOL, Wain is totally the car at the end

[Wain]

Oh wow, loved Red vs Blue Saw them at a few screenings they held in Melbourne when they visited Australia. Cool bunch.

[Krysteena]

haha!! More like this..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WakP7VOjbA

LOL, Wain is totally the car at the end

Wait...Wain's a transformer?! *packs bags* Wain, I'd like to go see Optimus Prime if you didn't mind ^_^ I'm all ready!

[Jurz]

I honestly don't understand the intellect argument. I mean…we can ride these things like pack mules which is more insulting than being a hunter's companion imho. I honestly don't care if we can't tame these, but I feel like the intellect argument is invalid when we can mount these things. I'd much rather be a beloved pet than someone's pack mule personally…so can someone explain why intellect matters? Especially since I'm sure Loquenahak was intellectually inclined cuz his mate was, and usually intellectually inclined creatures don't get with ones who are any less so yet he's tamable. I'm not arguing for the tamability of these creatures, more of just arguing against one of the usual arguments used to fight against the idea of dragonkin (which cloud serpents are not, but are still dragonic so similar enough so) being tamable.

Please don't jump down my throat T.T I just really don't understand the validity of such an argument

[Arthur]

Jurz that is exactly what I came to say but I didn't want to because I couldn't find the proper wording.
I want to know the same thing! :/

And to anyone who might, please be respectful when responding. I don't want to be snapped at because I have questions.

[Azunara]

Spiritbinder:

Did you never hear about the people who saw Alani get pulled down, and since she isn't tagged by the crystals, jump in and tag her then take the mount? That's the kind of stuff I'm thinking. And assuming the crystals were involved, that'd make a million times worse. Basically, while it's uncommon for people to be around when they see Alani getting pulled down from the sky, it is not unheard of for someone to pull her and in those few seconds she's not in range, jump her, burn her, and then take the mount without doing any of the work.

That must have been some time ago now I think, when you use the crystal on her now it actually does damage and tags her to you instantly, as soon as you use the crystal on her. Unless someone is in your group there is no way for them to "steal" the loot/mount anymore.

Is that so? Alright, fair enough that's not as bad. I guess at that point it becomes "Gee do I want to gather 10 skyshards for the mount or the pet..."

No but at this point we're bludgeoning a dead horse and making glue out of it.

Who knows what the future will bring--I just don't think it'll bring tamable dragons as of right now.

[Slickrock]

I honestly don't understand the intellect argument. I mean…we can ride these things like pack mules which is more insulting than being a hunter's companion imho. I honestly don't care if we can't tame these, but I feel like the intellect argument is invalid when we can mount these things. I'd much rather be a beloved pet than someone's pack mule personally…so can someone explain why intellect matters? Especially since I'm sure Loquenahak was intellectually inclined cuz his mate was, and usually intellectually inclined creatures don't get with ones who are any less so yet he's tamable. I'm not arguing for the tamability of these creatures, more of just arguing against one of the usual arguments used to fight against the idea of dragonkin (which cloud serpents are not, but are still dragonic so similar enough so) being tamable.

Please don't jump down my throat T.T I just really don't understand the validity of such an argument

I've made this counterpoint before, and I agree. But to take it a step further, we're even collecting them as mounts (can't stop at just one, must collect them all!) So the arguement of it being a special relationship doesn't hold water.

And even more, we are freely slaughtering them to make stuff, for food, to gain rep, or in hopes that they drop a mount. Some respect for intelligent creatures.

Simply put, the intelligence arguement is not the one Blizz is using to determine tameability. Arguing thus is applying RP standards on Blizz's game design decisions.

I'd write more, but I have some dragon flank stew that's almost ready.

[Lisaara]

@Gazer
Whole point isn't whether or not their classification is right or not. They are draconic in appearance and in their intellect regardless. Blizz's statement is just basically...."Only reason they're beasts is so they're separate from the aspects and their shtick". That's all. Nothing more. Nothing less. Most that are wanting cloud serpents tameable are reading far deeper into that quote than they should.

Yeah, that is the whole point, as that seems to be your argument and agenda that you are continually pushing, matter of factually by you even linking High school papers trying to back that exact argument.

This whole "intellect' thing also have NEVER been proven/established either regarding Cloud Serpents. Please point me in a direction that a cloud serpent (Not a Celestial) is any more intelligent than a Silithid, or a Spiritbeast? Sure they may be of a presumed higher intellect than a Moth or Crab, but you can't state as fact that their intellect is is that of a dragons, again thats very misleading. What part of them (other than looking similar to a chinese dragon) makes them of a higher intelligence? Is it Speech? There was a talking gorilla some time back, and it was even possible to tame it at one point.



So if Gorillas can talk that means they must all be sentient and removed as a tamable family?

Also one would assume that if a Cloud serpent was going to be intelligent and capable of speech, then why, according to the most current information regarding one as a mount with their new information notes, is that they actually can't....

• It is believed that Astral Cloud Serpents possess answers to some of life's greatest mysteries. Pity they can't talk.

Though I will consed it seems that Elegon can talk, as during the fight when it does, Lorwalker Cho says

Cho:

• "Magnificent! It Talks. This seems beyond what we thought the Mogo were capable of"

To be fair it's not really a standard Cloud Serpent to go by, that would be like saying Xuen is a standard Tiger. That and Elegon is made up of, or has been heavily modified by titan energies, it even sound like a Titan Machine. in fact at the end Lorewalker cho says

Cho:

• "The Machine has been destroyed, and so, the Mogu's power weakens."

Lastly please don't talk for blizzard saying "basically....Only reason they're beasts is so they're separate from the aspects and their shtick, That's all. Nothing more. Nothing less." doing so is spreading your option as cannon and is misleading and misinformation. That may or may not be the only reason, but as someone who does work for blizzard has already said on the matter, again I'll repeat in case it was missed...

GC:

• We named them what we did to leave it nebulous.

Nebulous, vague or ill-defined, they do not have any confirm definition, therefore they can not be defined as dragons... Simple.

Actually that is the whole point of this thread, this is not meant to be a debate about where or not Cloud serpents are Dragons or not which it has turned into (And yes I'm partially responsible too) so maybe the train should be popped back onto the rails now.

Please don't call it a high school paper when it isn't, thank you. :/ I'm in college and that was a college paper written in APA format for my English 120 class. That's all I'm gonna say cause I did have to look up facts from the game to write this paper(the best I could with schools limited access to gaming sites). The rest is beating a dead horse now. Also GC isn't a part of Blizz anymore so what he said in the past is null and void, imho. He has no control over what is done anymore.

Anyway, apologies if I came off as snippy this time. The whole 'this is a high school paper' thing made me twitch and it felt rather insulting since I worked very hard on it and got a good grade for it in a college level english class and I take a lot of pride in my writing.

Yeah... it was a good English paper (though I believe you used the wrong "complement" ), but it was an argument (which is what it was intended for) and not a proof. Blizzard has said little enough on the issue that anyone can choose their examples to provide evidence of the outcomes they personally desire. Especially if the assessor has no independent knowledge of the subject. Using Yu'lon and Nalak as evidence that cloud serpents are intelligent is like using Niuzao and Torta as arguments for why all yaks and turtles must be intelligent. It doesn't mean that they aren't, and if you truly believe in your heart that they are then that's cool for you. But it's a matter of your brain filling in the blanks in the way you feel is probably right, compared to someone else whose brain is filling in the blanks in an entirely different way. In other words, the discussion here is reflective of 90% of the argument on the internet, and well, probably most religious disagreements too Each side believes in their hearts that their argument is the right one and can even cite evidence for that, and also feels the fervent need to convince the other side that they're wrong.

In the end none of it matters. Whether someone here wants to see them tameable or not is irrelevant in light of fact that they simply aren't, and have shown no sign of becoming tameable. People from both sides, express your point of view and move on. This debate has happened a few times already lately and if I see another thread I may just lock it at the start as it's the same people with the same arguments each time (and I'm aware I'm one of them!)

Thank you for taking the time to read it.

Agreed on the topic. I'm getting frustrated it keeps getting brought up over and over again.


@Spiritbinder
LOL! RvB...epic.

[SpiritBinder]

The whole 'this is a high school paper' thing made me twitch and it felt rather insulting since I worked very hard on it and got a good grade for it in a college level english class and I take a lot of pride in my writing.

I guess to be fair, unless one opens your link and read the paper which says "ECPI University" on the front, I think you just said "My paper on why dragons should remain not tameable", which could be interpreted as Secondary or Tertiary I guess, they probably didn't open the link other wise odd call it the wrong thing?

Though as Wain suggested, should just walk away from this particular topic for good and let it go

[Lisaara]

The whole 'this is a high school paper' thing made me twitch and it felt rather insulting since I worked very hard on it and got a good grade for it in a college level english class and I take a lot of pride in my writing.

I guess to be fair, unless one opens your link and read the paper which says "ECPI University" on the front, I think you just said "My paper on why dragons should remain not tameable", which could be interpreted as Secondary or Tertiary I guess, they probably didn't open the link other wise odd call it the wrong thing?

Though as Wain suggested, should just walk away from this particular topic for good and let it go

Was kinda hoping the paper was read. ^^; But if said person didn't read it, then yeah, I guess they didn't know.

Yep. Probably. Is there even a body left of the dead horse?

[erictks1]

The whole 'this is a high school paper' thing made me twitch and it felt rather insulting since I worked very hard on it and got a good grade for it in a college level english class and I take a lot of pride in my writing.

I guess to be fair, unless one opens your link and read the paper which says "ECPI University" on the front, I think you just said "My paper on why dragons should remain not tameable", which could be interpreted as Secondary or Tertiary I guess, they probably didn't open the link other wise odd call it the wrong thing?

Though as Wain suggested, should just walk away from this particular topic for good and let it go

Agree dragon should not be tamable but definitely cloud serpent is not a dragon and they are not protector of the land as well. If they said beings who speak should not be tame , then what about bear in grizzy hill , if not mistaken they can speak as well

[WildcatTM]

I rather see the Kunchong tamable first, but I have no objections to Cloud Serpents. They're not officially dragon kins. Monks can summon Xuen. Don't see how a serpent is any different.

[pop]

http://forums.wow-petopia.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=22817