War of the Thorns annoyances

[Valnaaros]

Saurfang does do something in the novella. He commands the orcs maning the catapults to stand dowm, and they don't. Him being a commander, they would have to listen to his order unless Sylvanas tells them to belay it. But they don't listen and still go along with it.

In regards to the future, there isn't a single Horde outside of Saurfang that expresses any sort of moral quandary with what Sylvanas is having them do.

That is true. Varian did threaten at the end of SoO that if the Horde does anything again, that they would be ended.

[Sukurachi]

I'm sorry, but anything in a "novella" is not officially part of the story as far as I am concerned.
I play World of Warcraft the MMORPG, not World of online gaming+fan-fic.

I honestly don't give a shit if Blizzard says the books are canon. If it's not in the game, it didn't happen.

[Krysteena]

Again, it could simply be put down to Blizzard not taking the time to explore what the Horde's reaction actually is, as opposed to the Horde just being okay with it. At least three of the leaders are not okay with it because we've seen them express distrust in Sylvanas before. There will be some cases in the Horde where those within are more than willing to commit supposedly 'morally grey' actions, but they shouldn't stand for the entirety of the Horde. Honestly, I don't like my faction being reduced to the actions of the few that Blizzard seem willing to write. The Horde attracted me because it was morally ambiguous. It could be argued who the good guys and who the bad guys are. Now it's not, because Blizzard aren't giving the development that's needed and it's become too easy for people to turn around and say that because there's no reaction as of yet that everyone is okay with this and the Horde are these evil people with no morals.

Obviously, I'm not excusing the actions made. I know what happens in Stormsong, for example. That is disgusting, but presuming that because Blizzard haven't written a reaction that the entirety of the Horde is okay with it just doesn't work. Same with the burning of Teldrassil. No reaction written =/= indifference, imo, but nor does one reaction equal the reaction of all. I could have 100% written that in a more clear manner, you'll have to ignore my rambling

I'm also not 100% on what you're referring to as true, please excuse me on that. Do you mean that my statement of the Horde not getting away scot-free is true, or that it's true they are getting away scot-free? Because, at this rate, the Horde is going to end itself before the Alliance get their hands on it.

[Valnaaros]

Until Blizz writes a reaction that shows the Horde or members of it not being ok with what is happening, then the only thing to go by is that which has been shown, which is that almost all of them are fine with it. Anything else is speculation and non-canon. I so hope that Blizz will show that it isn't just a couple that are upset with Sylvanas, but that hasn't happened yet.

Them not getting away scot-free. If Blizz wants to fix this mess and stick with what has been established in the past, then the Horde as a whole needs to face consequences. Will that actually happen? I really don't know at this point.

[Qraljar]

Well, thanks to all the Alliance players for completely understanding how the Horde players feel.
It warms the heart. Truly.

Understand what?
The Alliance has been the reactive faction that can incur all the losses while the Horde goes on their rampage every time before.
Yes, you're forced into the villain role, and that sucks. But don't forget that in the meantime, the Alliance will be forced into the victim role.

[Silivren]

NGL I quit the game because of this. This absolute SHIT writing. Make my faction the evil faction. No, I don't think so, I'd rather quit with my character not being complacent in the murder of innocents because that's what Blizzard deems she should be.

[Qraljar]

Then when the Alliance retaliates and we get our inevitable SoO 2, they'll go back to being underdogs so that all the blame can be pinned on evil Sylvanas and the Horde can get away scot-free with little of meaning lost by them.

Just want to insert that Blizzard isn't actually giving the Horde a proper chance to react to what Sylvanas is doing, or else Saurfang or Baine would have done something. If Blizzard haven't written it in, then you can't just act as if the Horde are entirely complicit with what's going on. It's more like we're forcibly being written as aggressors without being given the opportunity to really react to the events in-game.

Uhm, yes I can when Baine and the other faction leaders are quite clearly still following Sylvanas' command without second thought in Battle for Azeroth. It's only Saurfang who has an issue, and that's not after the Burning of Teldrassil, it's after Sylvanas literally blights her own soldiers and raises them.

Canonically, the Horde ARE complicit. I don't care about what you as a player think of it, or what your character would ICly do, because it doesn't matter in the long run. Yes, it sucks, but the Alliance is in the same spot of being forced into a role. Do you think the Alliance players like being forced in the role of morally white pacifists that only react to the Horde for a majority of the expansion?

I would also argue that, if anything, the Horde does not get away scot-free. We haven't had a stable warchief since Cata, I believe, and every time something goes wrong with the warchief it's reflected onto the Horde as a whole. As someone who plays Horde, it definitely doesn't feel like I'm getting away scot-free with anything.

After Siege of Orgrimmar, there wasn't so much as a "Varian Wrynn wuz here." sprayed on the gates of Orgrimmar. None of the damage of the siege was reflected in any meaningful way after all the losses the Alliance incurred during Cataclysm and MoP as a result of Horde aggression.

The Horde definitely didn't have a city go Theramore as a result of following an evil warmongering orc until the point that it bit them in the ass.

[Lupis]

Yeah, I think it's fair to say that until Blizzard writes it in, any speculated Horde response is purely that. Blizzard holds the reins here, and they aren't exactly powerless- they could, at any time, write in the Horde's response. There are SO MANY quests and NPCs in this game. It wouldn't be hard to make a few where you can see the Horde reacting, and give the player the ability to then feel like there are sides to choose from.

HOWEVER-

I think it's really, really important to remember when discussing things like this that this is fiction. Yes, absolutely, fiction stems from something, but this is a game and none of these characters or NPCs are real. Judgements that could and probably should be applied to real life just can't be applied to games- they are not, and should never be, considered real life. People can have fun with the all-out chaos of war. People play the evil factions in games all the time, totally on purpose- it doesn't make anyone more or less morally superior to enjoy (or not enjoy) fictional evil. Heck, there are entire games made for the purpose of enjoying being harmlessly evil.

This is an MMO, not a game of proving moral superiority. Certainly, it's fair to point out what the horror of various events would mean to characters in the game, including your own- but it makes me super uncomfortable to see these fictional conflicts turned into a judgement call on people's morality.

OK SERIOUS TIME OVER

I agree with the others who have been talking about the Horde with a sense of mourning. I LOVED the concept of the Horde when I first started playing, and always thought there was something really compelling about the struggle to find their place and keep their culture while being attacked from all sides. The idea of a ragtag faction full of people with wildly different customs and ideas, all coming together out of respect and mutual need of a family, is incredibly complex to me and has a massive amount of storytelling potential. Seeing that get further and further erased because I guess it's just... too much work to write in...?? has been really tragic.

I won't argue that the new writing of them being totally complicit isn't canon, because it is- this is just the way it is now. I don't think the canon-ness is up to question so much as how reasonable that is, and how sad it is that their characters have been totally ignored because of it. Just because it's canon doesn't mean Horde players need to like it.

[Shade]

A reminder to take a deep breath and not take any one person's post about being upset over how the story is being written too personally-some people have expressed feeling personally attacked and that was not anyone's intention in the post I hope? Edit: LupisDarkmoon just said it so much better than I could right at the same time. *clap*

I started WoW as a Horde toon back in WOTLK and soon faction changed for no other reason that I finally got my best friend into the game and she preferred the zones and the look of the Alliance races. I've never been particularly attached to any of the main characters in the game, so I can't say I feel the same upset at the writers as those who are very attached to their personal character's lore and story. I will say I've always thought Anduin an idiot, hated Jania all the way back from WOTLK (She never stopped yacking away back then!) and liked Sylvannas just because she was so much more badass than the others.

I am disappointed in what the story has come to so far and have hopes that something will make it a bit more engaging. Of course running the War of Thorns on my horde hunter lost most of its drama as my best freind made a point every time we saw Sylvannas to /say to her about how bad an idea this was.... that and the wall of wisps barrier was just comical considering we could all just fly over it (Why doesn't Sylvannas use a flying mount, wtf?!).

[Krysteena]

Uhm, yes I can when Baine and the other faction leaders are quite clearly still following Sylvanas' command without second thought in Battle for Azeroth. It's only Saurfang who has an issue, and that's not after the Burning of Teldrassil, it's after Sylvanas literally blights her own soldiers and raises them.

Canonically, the Horde ARE complicit. I don't care about what you as a player think of it, or what your character would ICly do, because it doesn't matter in the long run. Yes, it sucks, but the Alliance is in the same spot of being forced into a role. Do you think the Alliance players like being forced in the role of morally white pacifists that only react to the Horde for a majority of the expansion?

I'm not saying that the Alliance are supposed to like the role they've been put into, although I will say that I'd much rather be on the Alliance side in this than the tree-burning, civilian-murdering Horde Blizzard has turned the faction into. I don't enjoy questioning whether people will think I'm a bad person because I main Horde. As I've said above, a lack of a reaction =/= indifference. Considering what kinds of characters Baine and the others are, they wouldn't be supportive of burning Teldrassil. They might keep their mouth shut for a bit because, let's be fair, Sylvanas isn't someone you want to anger, but they're not the sort to be okay with her actions, either. If the situations were reversed and the Alliance were where the Horde stood now (barring all logic that they most likely would never be in this situation) then I wouldn't throw around that the entirety of the Alliance are complicit just because Blizzard haven't taken the time to write reactions for everyone. Obviously it can be argued that it's speculation that none of the Horde aren't okay with it, but it shouldn't necessarily be discredited.

I'm just sayin'. I'm not here to press my opinions or anything like that. I just don't like that, because there's no definite reaction to state otherwise, it's equated to the Horde being a solid 97% okay with it, and it's starting to translate over to people's real morals. It's making people feel really bad that they're being lumped in with this mentality, which isn't okay.

[Qraljar]

I'm not saying that the Alliance are supposed to like the role they've been put into, although I will say that I'd much rather be on the Alliance side in this than the tree-burning, civilian-murdering Horde Blizzard has turned the faction into.

I understand that and I don't disagree with you. Just saying that both factions are in a shit state if you don't want to either be a clueless pacifist or an evil, cackling villain.

I don't enjoy questioning whether people will think I'm a bad person because I main Horde.

I don't think you're a bad person for maining Horde, even if you do enjoy this. There are plenty of people that play an evil faction and like it and none of them are evil or even unpleasant in real life. I also consider that many players just make up their own minds about what their character would do in this situation and go with that as their "canon".

As I've said above, a lack of a reaction =/= indifference. Considering what kinds of characters Baine and the others are, they wouldn't be supportive of burning Teldrassil. They might keep their mouth shut for a bit because, let's be fair, Sylvanas isn't someone you want to anger, but they're not the sort to be okay with her actions, either. If the situations were reversed and the Alliance were where the Horde stood now (barring all logic that they most likely would never be in this situation) then I wouldn't throw around that the entirety of the Alliance are complicit just because Blizzard haven't taken the time to write reactions for everyone. Obviously it can be argued that it's speculation that none of the Horde aren't okay with it, but it shouldn't necessarily be discredited.

Doing evil things out of fear is still being complicit, though. From what we know from BfA, all the leader-type figures except Saurfang are still following and heeding Sylvanas' command. Saurfang is actually the only one who takes some sort of stand, albeit weak. I get that you consider it OOC for a character like Baine to just stand down and let it happen. Or Mayla, or Thalyssra, but that's in all likelihood exactly what they will do until 8.4 or 8.5. Not because it makes sense for them to do so, but because Blizzard needs to force this faction war. They will be complicit just so that they can stretch this war out.

I'm just sayin'. I'm not here to press my opinions or anything like that. I just don't like that, because there's no definite reaction to state otherwise, it's equated to the Horde being a solid 97% okay with it, and it's starting to translate over to people's real morals. It's making people feel really bad that they're being lumped in with this mentality, which isn't okay.

Talking the canonical Horde, with the leaders, the actual ingame members and not the PCs? That seems to be the exact case, to be fair.
It's not like we haven't seen anything past this scenario. We've seen enough to suggest that the Horde as a faction isn't really heartbroken over what happened at Teldrassil. Whether it's inaction out of fear or genuine apathy doesn't matter in this case.
If we're talking player characters, that's a whole different story, but as dickish as it is for me to state it, the PCs don't really define the Horde or Alliance at all. They have no effect on it, they don't shape the narrative, they just get pushed through it.

[Valnaaros]

What Qraljar said. And to add onto it, the Kaldorei have been gradually losing their identity since Vanilla. They were once a savage race that has been reduced to - as they have been called on lore forums - purple humans or sidekicks to humans. And now one of the few things that they had left has been reduced to a pile of charred wood and embers.

[GormanGhaste]

I think it's sad that the only way blizzard thinks it can renew interest/make things fresh is by destroying multiple cities. It's (yes I'm going to say it) lazy storytelling. I'm not angry at the other faction; I'm angry at blizzard.

[Qraljar]

They were once a savage race that has been reduced to - as they have been called on lore forums - purple humans or sidekicks to humans.

Honestly? I think a better word to call them is designated 'jobbers'.

Which is, to say, they exist just so that the Horde can steamroll over them with little difficulty to make the Horde look powerful and are little more than glorified training dummies at this point.

I think it's sad that the only way blizzard thinks it can renew interest/make things fresh is by destroying multiple cities.

Honestly, I'm going to bet that we'll get some SoO2 type event at the end of BfA where we take Sylvanas out.

Sylvanas will be holed up in the Undercity, requiring the Alliance light users to clean out the blight. Then the Horde will go back to using the Undercity after BfA while the Night Elves remain refugees for the next 8 expansions.

I'm not angry at the other faction; I'm angry at blizzard.

I'm not angry at the other faction either. I do, however, hold a disdain for players of the other faction who revel in playing the evil character for so long as it suits them and will promptly return to playing the noble, savage underdog shtick the moment the Horde has to face the consequences of their actions. I'm already getting MoP flashbacks. :s

[Valnaaros]

That is an accurate description, sad to say.

[cowmuflage]

Yeah, I think it's fair to say that until Blizzard writes it in, any speculated Horde response is purely that. Blizzard holds the reins here, and they aren't exactly powerless- they could, at any time, write in the Horde's response. There are SO MANY quests and NPCs in this game. It wouldn't be hard to make a few where you can see the Horde reacting, and give the player the ability to then feel like there are sides to choose from.

HOWEVER-

I think it's really, really important to remember when discussing things like this that this is fiction. Yes, absolutely, fiction stems from something, but this is a game and none of these characters or NPCs are real. Judgements that could and probably should be applied to real life just can't be applied to games- they are not, and should never be, considered real life. People can have fun with the all-out chaos of war. People play the evil factions in games all the time, totally on purpose- it doesn't make anyone more or less morally superior to enjoy (or not enjoy) fictional evil. Heck, there are entire games made for the purpose of enjoying being harmlessly evil.

This is an MMO, not a game of proving moral superiority. Certainly, it's fair to point out what the horror of various events would mean to characters in the game, including your own- but it makes me super uncomfortable to see these fictional conflicts turned into a judgement call on people's morality.

:

I 100% agree with this. People are getting to the point of comparing liking the horde to liking real life war crimes the Nazi's have done for petes sake!

[Krysteena]

Doing evil things out of fear is still being complicit, though. From what we know from BfA, all the leader-type figures except Saurfang are still following and heeding Sylvanas' command. Saurfang is actually the only one who takes some sort of stand, albeit weak. I get that you consider it OOC for a character like Baine to just stand down and let it happen. Or Mayla, or Thalyssra, but that's in all likelihood exactly what they will do until 8.4 or 8.5. Not because it makes sense for them to do so, but because Blizzard needs to force this faction war. They will be complicit just so that they can stretch this war out.

Tbh I'm agreeing with most of what you say, and now you've mentioned it, I'm surprised Mayla and Thalyssra aren't doing anything - unless they are just doing following out of fear and believing that this is the norm for the Horde they've joined. I'm a little disappointed that there is no reaction from any of the leaders - this isn't the Horde that they signed up for, and it is giving this unanimous feeling of consent when there shouldn't be. Yet, there is more evidence that the Horde are okay with it than not, and I will admit that I'm biased towards the Horde, and it's easy to say that my argument of 'okay but just because it's not there doesn't mean it isn't' is purely speculation. Fair does.

I want to maybe say that the reason there's so little reaction from what we've seen in BfA, though, is because BfA beta was sent out before the burning of Teldrassil. If they had Horde leaders reacting to the burning in-game then it would spoil their 'super secret surprise'. The Stormsong stuff, though, doesn't follow this idea, so take that idea with a grain of salt.

I'll also go with I'm not discussing PCs here. That's a personal, IC thing more than anything else, rather than the Horde itself. I'm just sticking with the whole leader thing as opposed to trying to bring PCs into this. I like to think that the leaders all wouldn't be okay with this and that there's just not a proper reaction yet, but I'm starting to doubt that Blizzard would miss out something as major as one of the leaders speaking out against Sylvanas.

[Setanta]

It's also quite possible that there is some actual endgame that doesn't turn out so gloomy as it all appears now regarding character arc (I would have doubts to be honest).

And fwiw, the novellas aren't 'fanfic' they are written by sanctioned novelists that have been writing books for Blizz for years.

[Setanta]

So is it bad if I want to have fun with the burning of Teldrassil scene by changing the music to Seth Rollins' theme music?

[Castile]

I'll also go with I'm not discussing PCs here. That's a personal, IC thing more than anything else, rather than the Horde itself. I'm just sticking with the whole leader thing as opposed to trying to bring PCs into this. I like to think that the leaders all wouldn't be okay with this and that there's just not a proper reaction yet, but I'm starting to doubt that Blizzard would miss out something as major as one of the leaders speaking out against Sylvanas.

yeah I agree with this. Goes with the Vol jin's prophecy that she'll unite the horde...just not how you think. She'll unite them against her and an actual warchief (probably Surafang at this point) will emerge at the end of the xpac. I think this'll be the horde civil war ed. (although we kinda had that with Garrosh in the end) but just my guess.