Cataclysm Talent System - Completely Changed

[Vephriel]

Paraphrasing from a comment I read over on wow.com, but it illustrates my own views pretty well:

To me it sounds like they created WoW, then they released BC and made WoW bigger, then they release WotLK and made it even bigger. Now they are looking at this huge cobbled together monstrosity and saying WTF!? This thing is a nightmare. Let's take this expansion and fix it instead of adding to it. [...] I honestly think they are trying to tame a beast of their own making and in my opinion are doing a fine job of it.

Anyways, I know some people don't like the changes, but I think it's a good direction personally.

[Lupis]

Huh. Looks interesting. Can't say I approve or dissapprove at this point, it sounds like something that could end up amazing or game breaking. I myself am fine with changes, they're bound to happen and I may as well welcome them. I like the sound of feeling specialized sooner. The more I think about it, the more I think this is going to be for the better.
Bliz still has plenty of time to make it or break it, anyway.

[Kalliope]

Healing pre-40 as an off-spec is easy anyway.

Considering how bloated trees have become, I'm cautiously optimistic about this overhaul.

Let's put it this way: I have a better feeling about this than the Real ID forum changes. *snicker*

[Vephriel]

Let's put it this way: I have a better feeling about this than the Real ID forum changes. *snicker*

Lol, QFT. I'm keeping Real ID crap out of my opinions for actual game changes like this. I do love the timing of this announcement though.

/Real ID forum announcements
Players: "RRRAAAAGGGGGGEEEEEE"
Blizzard: "Uh oh!"
/Blizzard casts Misdirect on Talent Tree announcement
Players (aggro shift): "Oooh look at that!"

[Kalliope]

They're attempting to split the rage!

It's pretty dumb, really. The whole thing has really made me take a step back and see that it's not so much WoW that keeps me playing, but the people I'm playing alongside, regardless of where they are in the world. And we can always swap games. So I'm not sure what Blizzard is attempting to do with the Real ID stuff beyond driving people away.

Err, sorry. Sidetracked there. I'm just saying that if people don't like EITHER change, this is gonna backfire on them as a misdirect.

[Shinryu Masaki]

Did some of you actually read the post? Here's something that got me really excited about the change.

We want to focus the talent trees towards your chosen style of gameplay right away. That first point you spend in a tree should be very meaningful. If you choose Enhancement, we want you to feel like an Enhancement shaman right away, not thirty talent points later. When talent trees are unlocked at level 10, you will be asked to choose your specialization (e.g. whether you want to be an Arms, Fury or Protection warrior) before spending that first point. Making this choice comes with certain benefits, including whatever passive bonuses you need to be effective in that role, and a signature ability that used to be buried deeper in the talent trees. These abilities and bonuses are only available by specializing in a specific tree. Each tree awards its own unique active ability and passives when chosen. The passive bonuses range from flat percentage increases, like a 20% increase to Fire damage for Fire mages or spell range increases for casters, to more interesting passives such as the passive rage regeneration of the former Anger Management talent for Arms warriors, Dual-Wield Specialization for Fury warriors and Combat rogues, or the ability to dual-wield itself for Enhancement shaman.

The initial talent tree selection unlocks active abilities that are core to the chosen role. Our goal is to choose abilities that let the specializations come into their own much earlier than was possible when a specialization-defining talent had to be buried deep enough that other talent trees couldn’t access them. For example, having Lava Lash and Dual-Wield right away lets an Enhancement shaman feel like an Enhancement shaman. Other role-defining examples of abilities players can now get for free at level 10 include Mortal Strike, Bloodthirst, Shield Slam, Mutilate, Shadow Step, Thunderstorm, Earth Shield, Water Elemental, and Penance.

I mean, seriously? Stuff like that at level 10 instead of 60 or somewhere in between? There's hope right there that Beast Masters can tame Exotic pets at level 10!!

[Kalliope]

Rofl.

It won't be exotics at level 10. Can you imagine the balance issues? However, no matter where they do put that talent, it WILL be sooner than it is now. And that IS cool.

[Sarayana]

Did some of you actually read the post? Here's something that got me really excited about the change.

We want to focus the talent trees towards your chosen style of gameplay right away. That first point you spend in a tree should be very meaningful. If you choose Enhancement, we want you to feel like an Enhancement shaman right away, not thirty talent points later. When talent trees are unlocked at level 10, you will be asked to choose your specialization (e.g. whether you want to be an Arms, Fury or Protection warrior) before spending that first point. Making this choice comes with certain benefits, including whatever passive bonuses you need to be effective in that role, and a signature ability that used to be buried deeper in the talent trees. These abilities and bonuses are only available by specializing in a specific tree. Each tree awards its own unique active ability and passives when chosen. The passive bonuses range from flat percentage increases, like a 20% increase to Fire damage for Fire mages or spell range increases for casters, to more interesting passives such as the passive rage regeneration of the former Anger Management talent for Arms warriors, Dual-Wield Specialization for Fury warriors and Combat rogues, or the ability to dual-wield itself for Enhancement shaman.

The initial talent tree selection unlocks active abilities that are core to the chosen role. Our goal is to choose abilities that let the specializations come into their own much earlier than was possible when a specialization-defining talent had to be buried deep enough that other talent trees couldn’t access them. For example, having Lava Lash and Dual-Wield right away lets an Enhancement shaman feel like an Enhancement shaman. Other role-defining examples of abilities players can now get for free at level 10 include Mortal Strike, Bloodthirst, Shield Slam, Mutilate, Shadow Step, Thunderstorm, Earth Shield, Water Elemental, and Penance.

I mean, seriously? Stuff like that at level 10 instead of 60 or somewhere in between? There's hope right there that Beast Masters can tame Exotic pets at level 10!!

Holy crap. Hoooooooly crap. O_O

Ok. Part of me is super giddy and excited because holy crap, you know??!?! I mean, not waiting until the 40s to have elemental be viable dps is awesome! Getting dual wield as a shammy at level 10??? EARTH SHIELD???? @_@

On the other hand, there was really something to be said for that effort it takes to get your first real tree-defining talent. I mean, I was riding around like a giddy school and taking snapshots when my priest first got shadow form. It was such an accomplishment!

[Shinryu Masaki]

What balance issues? All pets are going to do the same dps anyway, exotics will only have a second special skill, which will likely be a another buff or debuff, compared to normal pets. I honestly don't see why we wouldn't get it considering all the exotics running around from 10 to 60 that we can't just tame at all, which is really weird. The Kurken and the worms in Ragefire Chasm are a good example of this. Beside, what other thing in BM defines us beside exotic pets? Bestial Wrath? That's an active ability so I think we might get this one as well at 10. Would fit pretty well with the passive and active talents they say we're getting at level 10.

[Ryai]

You know that this means that while leveling we probably won't be able to find any healers at all.

I disagree. I've looked at the shaman and druid resto trees as they were up until this change, and both have lots of offensive boosts in there. It's very clear to me that the new resto talents are geared towards 1) making it easier to solo as resto, and 2) making it easier to pvp as resto.

As for this change... I dunno. I honestly don't understand why they're overhauling things to such a degree, but it looks to me like they're taking this (Cata) as an opportunity to "fix" things they consider bugged or broken. Whether we agree with that assessment or not, I mean.

And 3: Making people think they can heal/tank with dps/pvp talents. No offense.

Look yeah I know how hard it can be to solo as resto/holy.

I have a formerly Resto Shammy [will respecc resto when I can buy dual specc] a lv 20 resto drood and a lv 25 holy paladin. But the only thing is, it's not that leveling solo is bad, or challenging. It's just godawful slow. I mean as resto at 80, Coal has bucketloads of survivability, but as bear I just eat things up and spit them out.

So there are going to be pros/cons for being resto/holy/disc/whatever, but choosing dps/pvp talents, over healing, later in game..?

And honestly I don't want healers thinking they can prioritize dpsing over healing ._.

The other thing is, we're getting only 41 talent points.

Meaning everyone is going to have the same damn fucking builds if PVP, PVE, Solo, Raiding, etc.

[Vephriel]

Honestly, everyone already has the same builds. The cookie cutter specs they grab from EJ and such. Sure there's some that don't, but you can't deny the majority of people just take the current 'best' spec and roll with it.

[Palladiamorsdeus]

*Sighs* I don't know WHAT I think. On the one hand, you'll be able to actually LEARN YOUR CLASS a lot sooner this way. But on the other, it feel's wrong, just having everything handed to you on a silver platter like that. Maybe I am being to old school, and maybe I should just be happy for the change. But part of me just doesn't like the feel of it at all.

Also, I kind of have to laugh at some one saying having exotics at level 10 would be overpowered. Really? Having exotics at level SIXTY isn't really what you'd call stellar. It simply expands your repertoire to include those pet's, and gives you four extra pet talent points. Four extra pet talent points are not make or break, and even now that's under the assumption that pet's get to keep their talent trees. So it is entirely possible that level 10 will introduce Beastial Wrath and Beast Mastery as our abilities.

Also Vepheriel, at least there is a decision to be made there, and there are options outside of cookie cutter. It seem's like they are essentially trying to say "No, you can't be stupid. We are going to HAND you these skills, and then make a fairly linear path for you to proceed down so that you have no chance of screwing this up." This MAY come out wonderful, it is still a bit to early for my gloom and doom. But I just have a bad feeling about it.

[Kalliope]

At lower levels, those extra talent points can be a BIG deal, so I stand by my original comment.

Now if exotics are split from those extra talent points, I'll agree that it's probably not as big of a deal.

[Palladiamorsdeus]

Kalliope, I apologize but I can't take that seriously. Compare that four talent points to say.....Titans Grip. Or Bloodthirst. Or Mortal Strike. Or Chimera Shot. Or explosive shot. I could go on, but I don't think I need to. In comparison to what some classes COULD potentially be getting, those four talent points are quite literally nothing. Three points on top tier, and one point on second. More armor, more health, more attack speed, and one more point a little down.

IF you were to compare Beast Mastery to some one NOT GETTING ANYTHING, then yes, Beast Mastery does become overpowered. But compare it to pretty much any other of the potential 51 pointers to become active at 10, and that completely falls through.

WITH THAT SAID, I could see them removing the 4 talent points, giving the ability to tame exotics, and then sticking that 4 points as a deep talent some where in beast master.

[Sarayana]

You know that this means that while leveling we probably won't be able to find any healers at all.

I disagree. I've looked at the shaman and druid resto trees as they were up until this change, and both have lots of offensive boosts in there. It's very clear to me that the new resto talents are geared towards 1) making it easier to solo as resto, and 2) making it easier to pvp as resto.

As for this change... I dunno. I honestly don't understand why they're overhauling things to such a degree, but it looks to me like they're taking this (Cata) as an opportunity to "fix" things they consider bugged or broken. Whether we agree with that assessment or not, I mean.

And 3: Making people think they can heal/tank with dps/pvp talents. No offense.

None taken. Really, that's no different than now though - people make mistakes about specs/roles/skills, and they'll continue to do so no matter how much Blizz attempts to spoon feed us the information.

Just the other day I had a tank in UK that cost my resto druid half her mana bar on the second trash pull. My husband died twice before we got to the drake room. He was new to it, he wasn't def capped (he had to check when I asked) and his spec, gear, and skills at it sucked. I told him he wasn't ready to tank a heroic, ate the 30 minute debuff, and went and did a random on my hunter instead. Sometimes these things are more upsetting than other times, but it's part of the game. *shrug* that's part of playing an mmo.

[Kalliope]

*shrug* By all of this reasoning, the 10pt talent for BM is going to be BW anyway, which actually IS overpowered, so it's all a moot point. Even if my reasoning on why beast mastery won't be the 10pt talent, the fact remains that it still most likely won't be.

[Palladiamorsdeus]

That's the thing, we don't know. Some of the points listed were 41, some were lower, and some where 51 point talents. I am actually banking on at least the ability to tame exotics at level 10, though as I said I doubt we'll get the 4 talent points. IF our pets even have talent trees anymore, and this announcement doesn't feel me with any great deal of hope in that direction.

[Chrizesu]

Let's put it this way: I have a better feeling about this than the Real ID forum changes. *snicker*

Lol, QFT. I'm keeping Real ID crap out of my opinions for actual game changes like this. I do love the timing of this announcement though.

/Real ID forum announcements
Players: "RRRAAAAGGGGGGEEEEEE"
Blizzard: "Uh oh!"
/Blizzard casts Misdirect on Talent Tree announcement
Players (aggro shift): "Oooh look at that!"

Misdirect resisted by Chrizesu. Instead Chrizesu spawns into two mobs.

Edit: Chrizesu has passive ability Hydra effect. Every time an aggro attempt is made she multiplies.

[Mania]

My apologies, Loridon, for editing your post. But I wanted to get a link to the source in the first post and move this to the news forum.

...

I was quite taken aback by the notion that we're locked into our chosen tree until we've spent 31 points -- which essentially means until the entire tree is filled, given that the top talent is a 31-point talent now.

I suppose there might be some variations on how you spend your points at low level -- I mean in what order you take talents -- but it seems fairly minimized to me.

...

As for this change... I dunno. I honestly don't understand why they're overhauling things to such a degree, but it looks to me like they're taking this (Cata) as an opportunity to "fix" things they consider bugged or broken. Whether we agree with that assessment or not, I mean.

Why: Live team fever.

[Kalliope]

It really depends on what they're doing with the talents that disappear. If they become baseline, that changes things even more...