Build 12479 - Random Hunter Talent Tree Screenshots

[Loridon]

To be honest when I saw,at the start of wotlk,the 51 talent from bm I thought it was one of the most sucky 51 talents(and I still do).Its not like its is a big boost for pve or pvp.Its just not worthy to be a 51 talent(and in cata 31).Bestial wrath is even more worth.Its maby fun to have a exotic pet but it dont boost your performance alot and thats what a 51 talent should do.

About intimidation.I think is useful for the lower lv hunters but its not equal if you compare it with aimed and explo shot.I always thought bm should have there own shot.You cant call cobra shot a real bm shot.

[Ryai]

Small Edit, because I forgot to add one last insult to injury. If Blizzard insists on their system of 'every other levelish. Sort of.' then we won't even be taming exotics until level 70.

*facedeskpalmmissleshipboatbridge*

About intimidation.I think is useful for the lower lv hunters but its not equal if you compare it with aimed and explo shot.I always thought bm should have there own shot.You cant call cobra shot a real bm shot.

Blizzard claimed BM would get Cobra Shot boosting talents. Which was a bunch of BS, all Cobra Shot boosting talents were tied to Steady. Then the fact it was also a nature shot, meaning there would be mobs immune to it, meaning you'd have to fall back on Steady, which would be doing the same amount of damage imo as Cobra Shot would anyways.

Then also the fact that now we have no +shot damage abilities in BM. None for Cobra, none for Steady. All 'Cobra' talents still also apply for Steady, too.

[Foru21dr]

I am one that uses intimidation quite often, but I'm not a Instance runner. I'm heavily in PVP and that ability I'm very glad to see we get early. I also use it heavily in mobs when I'm questing. So it looks like I'm in the minority in liking the talent being early in our tree. The other talents get a boost in DPS but I can't imagine it is such a difference that BM suffers because of it. So for me... Yay that intimidation is first. WSG flag runner.. Watch out. I have something to knock you down expecially if I have a ravager and intimidation. Woohoo.

[Tahlian]

Well, I think we can all agree that once you get to end-game raiding, Intimidation is pretty much useless, since you can't stun bosses. Someone over on the official forums suggested that Intimidation be given the Deep Freeze treatment from the frost mage tree - if the ability is used on a target that can't be stunned, it does damage instead, giving it an end-game use like the other two trees' signature abilities will have.

Perhaps some of our Petopians that are in beta could put forth this suggestion on the beta forums and in feedback where it might get duly considered.

[Galahandra]

Aww, I just mentioned the Deep Freeze idea over on our Cataclysm - Others forums! Thought I was being original and clever (me?)!

But, I will go over to the beta forums and make the petition, if it's not already been started, will be posting from my Human Hunter, Tansy, and her pet Vultros

[Ryai]

Well, I think we can all agree that once you get to end-game raiding, Intimidation is pretty much useless, since you can't stun bosses. Someone over on the official forums suggested that Intimidation be given the Deep Freeze treatment from the frost mage tree - if the ability is used on a target that can't be stunned, it does damage instead, giving it an end-game use like the other two trees' signature abilities will have.

Perhaps some of our Petopians that are in beta could put forth this suggestion on the beta forums and in feedback where it might get duly considered.

If they did that then one other thing would have to be changed. Intimidate would then have to NOT produce any threat as I doubt Blizzard would remove the high threat generation from Intimidate for the 'Deep Freeze Like' damage ability.\

There are several other talents BM could have gotten for at lv 10. Exotics, TBW/BW, etc etc, and intimidate could have been left as a PVP move/Solo PVE move talent.

[Anansi]

It is a fair point that Intimidation does not have the across the board usefulness that the other two trees get. That said, we may have to just see how BM plays out during beta testing and whether a change is warranted or not. Ultimately however, not all three specs are going to be equally useful for all situations, but it does seem that each tree currently forces a mixed bag of PVE and PVP talents.
One suggestion I read was that these talents are currently mandatory for testing purposes only, so they are not skipped during beta. This makes sense to me and I hope it is the case.

[Ryai]

It is a fair point that Intimidation does not have the across the board usefulness that the other two trees get. That said, we may have to just see how BM plays out during beta testing and whether a change is warranted or not. Ultimately however, not all three specs are going to be equally useful for all situations, but it does seem that each tree currently forces a mixed bag of PVE and PVP talents.

Sorry but a change is already warranted. Intimidation has far less uses than any shot. I mean outside of PVP. And that's what it feels like they're trying to force us to be, but most of the better PVP talents are in SV/MM, or deep in the BM tree [if at all]. And I never bought in to that crap of 'not all three speccs will be useful etc', End game, fine whatever I've stopped caring about it. But outside it? It shouldn't matter if you're BM or MM or SV, a pure DPS class should NOT be doing less DPS, atleast not glaringly so right off the bat.

Because as Palla pointed out, BM lost all it's pet buffing talents- and I'm doubting pet talent trees are going to be getting those missing talents. Then there's also the fact if they do get them, MM and SV would also have access to them, 4 points extra or not be damned. So again, another defense for Intimidation being our lv 10 ability, out the window.

Also. Think about it.

SV's trademark; Explosive shot.

MM's trademark; Aimed shot.

BM's trademark; TBW or Tame Exotics.

Yet which of the ones listed were not handed out? Because when I think BM it's not 'three second stun'. It's either Big Red Pet- or a Devilsaur.

[Anansi]

Actually GC said that Kill Command is now intended to be the "signature shot" of BM. That's the only spec which will be using it with any regularity given the Focus cost is too high for Marks or Survival.

[Ryai]

Actually GC said that Kill Command is now intended to be the "signature shot" of BM. That's the only spec which will be using it with any regularity given the Focus cost is too high for Marks or Survival.

But.. it's not even a shot...

And even if MM/SV can't use it regularly, they can still use it. Meaning it's NOT exclusive nor a signature.

Sigh, first Cobra gets labled as our Exclusive Shot, now Kill Command. And then I bet it will be something else :/

[Mania]

After thinking about it more ... As much as I like having Intimidation at 10, I do feel very weird about it being our spec-defining skill.

[Anansi]

No it's not a "shot" because BM is pet-centric, not weapon-centric. Effectively KC is a high damage ability, it just comes from the pet rather than the Hunter. I believe part of the design philosophy there is to reinforce just how vital the pet is to the BM Hunter.

The only time Marks or Survival are likely to use KC is during extended periods of movement and probably in PVP.

[Palladiamorsdeus]

But part of my problem is that it'll be just as effective for MM and SV. While we'll have the option to make it a little cheaper and to boost it's critical chance, it'll be doing just as much, if not MORE damage for SV and MM if and when they choose to use it. Actually after a little number crunching, it'll flat out be doing more for SV and MM. IF, and I stress if, this stays the way it is. Personally, I don't see that happening. These tree's are a mess, and they haven't added in enough interesting talents to make up for taking away so many of the old talents.

[Kalliope]

After thinking about it more ... As much as I like having Intimidation at 10, I do feel very weird about it being our spec-defining skill.

This is why I've never liked BM as a spec, really. All of the shots BM has available are baseline, which therefore seem boring. Intimidation, Bestial Wrath, and the Beast Within are the only real useable abilities BM has that the other specs don't...and none of them are shots.

By the way, BW and TBW are no longer linked and are on the same tier. That's pretty wild.

[Palladiamorsdeus]

Cobra shot and Kill Command were supposed to be our signature shots, but if you've looked through SV and MM, you'll find that MM has a better talent for Kill Command that could still be really useful for PvE, and SV has flat out more and better boosts for Cobra shot. I apologize for sounding so negative, but this is stupid, and it turns what Blizzard said prior, about them being for BM, into a flat out lie.

I am a little angry.

Edit to add something else to make us all happy: The armor and health boosts are gone too. SO now BM's pet's don't survive any better then anyone elses, either.

[Kalliope]

Cobra Shot and Kill Command are still given to all hunters. BM is essentially the combat tree for hunters, where the basic skills get buffed.

Sic 'Em is reachable for BM hunters, at least, even if it's in a different tree.

[Palladiamorsdeus]

Oh I know Kalli, and that was always kind of my argument about calling both of them signature for any one spec. When I think of signature, I think of an ability that is only available to one tree. We have BW in a much nerfed form now, and that's our signature ability. And I know no one want's to hear this, but most likely under this new system, we won't be learning that until 50 or 60. But back to my point, would it have killed them to have put Kill Command or Cobra shot half way down the BM tree?

Edit: Dang it Palladia, finish what you are going for! To go for Sic'em you'd have to sacrifice most of the points in SV, including most of improved tracking and Hunter Vs Wild, which provides a sizeable bonus to AP ((Even more with stamina being such a huge part of Catacylsm)) and even the fairly good imrpoved serpent sting.

[Anansi]

While KC can be used for Marks and Survival, it's not going to be part of the standard rotation like it is now as it it just too expensive. As for the Resistance Is Futile talent deep in Marks which is based of KC, well, pretty much everyone agrees that this is A Really Dumb Idea. If anything it'll get some use in PVP but at least 1 rank in RiF is mandatory in the current tree. It does not mean KC will be used regularly with Marks, not unless KC's Focus cost is dramatically reduced.

As for the fretting over "signature" shots, I personally think that's a bit silly. I don't really care if a tree has a defining shot or what-have-you, the signature of the spec is how all the talents and abilities play together as a whole.

[Palladiamorsdeus]

Anansi?

Kill Command- Give the command to kill, causing your pet to instantly inflict [ 53% of RAP + 1149.98 ] damage to its target. Your Pets happiness increases the damage done.
40 Focus, 45 yd range, Instant, 6 sec cooldown

Vs

Explosive Shot Level 85
50 Focus 35 yd range

You fire an explosive charge into the enemy target, dealing RAP*0.14+429-RAP*0.14+517 Fire damage. The charge will blast the target every second for an additional 2 sec.

and for giggles

Chimera Shot
50 Focus 35 yd range

You deal 190% weapon damage, refreshing your Serpent Sting and triggering an effect depending on the venom on the target.

Annnnnnndddddd by comparison


Arcane Shot Level 85
50 Focus 35 yd range

An instant shot that causes RAP*0.33+1205 Arcane damage.

Kill Command uses 20% more of our ranged AP then Arcane shot, AND is effected to an unknown degree by pet happiness. *Blinks* I was going to say that Improved arcane shot would make it better for MM, but I can't find that talent anymore....anyway, point being that if a target is properly debuffed, most likely Kill COmmand will be a better investment then Arcane shot. Gimme a sec....

Aimed Shot - An aimed shot that deals 300% ranged weapon damage plus 5.(50 Focus, 2 sec cast, 35 yd range

Okay, that does beat Kill Command, but it's also a cast time vs an instant use ability. So MM still has a use for Kill Command, but not as much of a use as SV.

Keep in mind! This is all just for now.

And a second edit, because I forgot to mention that Chimera Shot no longer deals additional damage from serpent sting, but deals more damage initially now. ALso edited to show the increase in Chimera damage.

[Kalliope]

BM is about the pets, not hunter epeenery. If you want big numbers from yourself, take a different spec. Otherwise, you have to split more damage with your pet. Hopefully with pets scaling 100% with the hunter's gear, they'll do even more damage.

I just find vanilla shots kinda boring myself. >_>