Heads up - security leak if you complained to ESRB

[Sarayana]

Don't worry about it Veph, I never assumed this was an attack on me.

I will say that I'd be very wary to judge an entire community of over 7000 by a the words of some of its members though... Just like I don't judge all of you guys because one person has a bad night and says something off-putting. I know many on there that aren't members for the reasons you guys mention, and I myself joined because I enjoyed the laid back WoW discusion.

Feminism and women's rights is such a hot topic that I'm not going to engage in a discussion about it... After all, I have a lot of work to get done tonight. Suffice to say that regardless of the over-sold and misconstrued "feminism" that populates many Internet fora, the concerns are valid; women are more likely than men to experience online (and offline) harassment of more violent and sexual nature. Perhaps there truly is a need for a community where women who've had experiences like that can feel that they're shielded from it? Either way, the community has grown to be much more than that now.

[Gimlion]

I too have grown up taught that both men and women are equals. I can completely understand women wanting and fighting for such a position, as it is not that case everywhere, however, a lot of times the feminist rallies I've seen have been more along the lines of 'Women deserve greater power, and the disgusting swine called men can go to hell' (Yes, just about all of the rallies I've seen were like this) which I personally don't get. They've come so far and worked so hard for Equality, only to demand more, and they don't realize that should they get absolute power like men had for so long, they become nothing better than the 'Swine'. I'm not saying all feminist are like this. I know a lot of them aren't, but the ones who are I just wonder what they could possibly be thinking...

My two copper.

[Saturo]

That's my experience as well, Gim. That's why I don't really associate with any such political party.

Not that I'm allowed to yet, but...

[Sarayana]

There is definitely a tendency towards "feminists" falling into a more... rabid line of thought. I recall my old University Department, where you pretty much had to draw on feminist theories if you wanted to do well. The Department Chair was a Marxist feminist and very militant about it... *reminisces* Well, it's amusing in retrospect.

On the other hand, it's dangerous to assume 1) that all feminism (or women's associations in general, feminist or not) fall within that category, and 2) that "feminism has done its job and there's no more work to be done." We are far from having achieved true equality between genders. Gendered work is often hidden and unpaid, such as child care and house work, and in the workplace women are generally (though not everywhere, fortunately!!) paid less than men. And that's just in the Western, industrialised world. Much, much more work remains to ensure the safety, health, and basic rights of women in countries all over the world. It'd be dangerous and naive to rest on our laurels when it comes to the uphill journey to gender equality.

[cowmuflage]

I still don't get the women who want equal rights then go and say things that basicly say they want more rights than men and stuff >.> Some people can't be happy with the same.

[Sarayana]

I still don't get the women who want equal rights then go and say things that basicly say they want more rights than men and stuff >.> Some people can't be happy with the same.

To be honest, I haven't heard any women say that they want more rights than men... and especially not the ones that advocate equal rights. There are many, many misconceptions about feminism and what it entails.

However, as I pointed out above, even in our Western, industrialised countries equal rights are more of an exception than a norm. Overt and covet, formal and informal, structuralised prejudices exist in our societies. I'm not saying that women are generally repressed or shunned, I'm saying that they are generally underpaid compared to the male workforce, they have a harder time proving their ability to perform at the same level as their male coworkers, and they generally have to work harder for equal recognition. I'd wager that no woman will go through her life and not experience this type of inequality of treatment.

[Vephriel]

I know this thread direction sort of took a detour and I don't want to make it worse, but I did want to clarify some points that I realized I failed to point out in my initial 'letting off steam' yesterday.

I don't have a generalized encompassing view of the issues I brought up before. I know that feminism isn't all aggressive or rabid, and that female groups certainly don't all stereotype into the negative traits that I stated earlier. My particular issue was addressing those that did have bad traits, and I know I failed to reiterate that. Apologies for any misconceptions I might have caused, sometimes when I get going on a subject I just don't really process what I'm typing and it just all comes out at once.

Anyways, sorry for the thread derail. ><;

[Saturo]

I'll copy Veph's apology. I didn't mean all, just a rather small part, actually.

[Sarayana]

I'm really glad you both clarified your statements. I didn't particularly think you were anti-feminist or against the safeguard of women, online or offline... but generalising statements that can be misread and misunderstood can potentially be very damaging.

So many women in our society experience gendered harassment, and most people know at least one woman that has been assaulted because of her gender (whether they know it or not - this is not something that is generally talked about, so many women hide these experiences). While some women do play up their gender and use it as a bargaining token (and dear god I hate that behaviour! It's as dangerous as the dismissal of the issue), this is not something that should be dismissed and ignored. Unfortunately, our society has yet to arrive at a point where women don't have to fear gendered treatment, harassment, and violence. Awareness of this fact is paramount if we want things to change.

[cowmuflage]

Oh Sarayana i was just saying that from one si have seen tahts all it was not a misconception on femmism on the hole sorry for that. I still don't like people who blame males for every thing tho :S. I did not mean to upset you and if i did i'm sorry.

[Sarayana]

I'm not upset.

[cowmuflage]

Oh i thougt you were >.< I'm really bad at reading people. It's good that i did not upset you! fellow tallstrider lover <3

[Sarayana]

Lol!

Text is a terrible medium for conveying meaning and emotion sometimes... That's why it's so important to really weigh your words and take care with statements that would have been perfectly reasonable if we'd been face to face. I can't tell you how often I've had to explain a joke in gchat that sounded great in my head but was just wrong in text. >.> I suffer from textual foot-in-mouth disease sometimes.

[Gimlion]

Please Also note that I did not mean all or even most of Feminists are rabid and viscous, just alot of the ones I have met, which to be fair, is prolly a very miniscule amount compared to the whole group of feminists

[Teigan]

many Internet fora

Hehe, proper plural FTW!