Latest Beta Build (BM info)

[Saturo]

[...]Having been annoyed by constant aggro pulls off my pets in the other specs - even with crappy gear, constant feigning, and misdirects [...]

The other specs don't have the pet tanking for them, they kite. A good levelling pet for a MM or SV hunter would be, say, a spider, for it's root, or a Silithid, for the stun.

Or a crab, since they're tenacity pets anyway - which was what I had done on the hunter in question. It was still more time-consuming than as BM at certain levels, simply due to having to kite.

The biggest difference, of course, was having to go through so much mana in the other specs, but that's a completely moot point now.

Yeah, crabs would count as well. You know, I always found MM and even SV as quicker to level, most of the time, a mob would be dead before it got to me, and that's without popping Concussive first. Some things, however, are easier with a pocket tank, such as killing elites while levelling.

[Palladiamorsdeus]

Kalli, I am not trying to be rude but what are you seeing in the BM tree that I'm not? 24% focus regen is alright, then you have 3% haste increases culminating after five attacks in a 15% attack speed increase, and the occasional critical off of cobra strikes. Beastial wrath is there, but won't be learned for a much longer period of time. In second tier, before BM has even learned it's haste increase for pets, SV get's HunterVsWild, which is a 30% of stamina AP increase for hunter AND pet ((And stamina is much higher now)) and MM has the less useful Go for the Throat and Sic'em. Now you can, and rightfully so, argue that pet's are getting 100% of our stats, BUT the fact is that everyone's pet's are. Ghouls, minions, water elemental, all of them. Now where is the rest of BM's compensation?

Keep in mind that I am saying this is still early beta. There is plenty of time for this to change, and I fully expect it to.

[Kalliope]

The other specs don't have the pet tanking for them, they kite. A good levelling pet for a MM or SV hunter would be, say, a spider, for it's root, or a Silithid, for the stun.

Or a crab, since they're tenacity pets anyway - which was what I had done on the hunter in question. It was still more time-consuming than as BM at certain levels, simply due to having to kite.

The biggest difference, of course, was having to go through so much mana in the other specs, but that's a completely moot point now.

Yeah, crabs would count as well. You know, I always found MM and even SV as quicker to level, most of the time, a mob would be dead before it got to me, and that's without popping Concussive first. Some things, however, are easier with a pocket tank, such as killing elites while levelling.

Like I said, it depends on the gear. If you have a decent set, things will be dead before they reach you. But there is a point of gear while leveling (usually just shy of max level) where you pull off your pet and things don't die fast enough, which means you're in trouble.

BM is consistent in that you can take on anything while soloing, especially elites that aren't meant to be kited.

Kalli, I am not trying to be rude but what are you seeing in the BM tree that I'm not?

It's not what's there; it's what ISN'T there.

There's a lack of extra burst shots in the BM tree, which means that by default, BM hunters are less likely to suddenly pull off of their pets, who are also doing more damage and generating more aggro on their own - even before calling intimidation into play.

[Palladiamorsdeus]

.....that actually make's sense.....and will make even more sense if Kill Command gains aggro for the pet.

[Anansi]

But that's part of the problem. There are three, top's four roles. Tanking, healing, DPSing, and MAYBE CCing. Doesn't that mean that specs meant to fill in certain roles should be equal? Or at least nearer to it then they are now? I'm not saying this to be argumentive or to bring up an old point, but how can you compare Mortal Strike or Blood Thirst or Divine Storm or the like to Intimidation? As a DPS class, shouldn't one of even BM's baseline abilities be a DPS ability?

I don't think so, because as I said if they were to be all equal we'd just have one class (let's call it the Adventurer) with three talent trees (DPS, Healing, Tanking).
If everything is equal at every role at every level, that's boring, there's no sense of choice, personal preference, enjoyment of different mechanics and so forth. A Beastmaster Hunter's selection of talents and abilities interact together differently from a Fury Warrior, for example. Some classes and specs may be better at certain things at certain points than others at the same points. Some healers are better raid healers than tank healers, for example my Resto Shaman isn't a great single target healer in a raid and I'm often outclassed by Resto Druids on that front because they have quicker heals. But my Shaman is a great raid healer and carries a toolbox of neat procs and abilities that create a strong healing mixture that keeps me competitive or even ahead of the Resto Druid.

In DPS, the Beastmaster Hunter has a very hard hitting pet where the Marksman or Survival Hunter hits harder personally. BM can thus keep up a nice chunk of damage even if they are disabled, extensively on the move, shooting other targets and so forth. It's a different DPS mechanic but here too the BM Hunter has a unique set of tools which the other specs do not have and the player learns to use them well. Warriors play completely differently with their own unique tools. Maybe some Warriors are looking at talents and saying "well I get this crap here but look at what the Hunters get!" at a different stage of level progression.

It is all about how everything interacts together. Just looking across the board at a certain level point and comparing what is there to another class is not an effective analysis because each class has it's own mechanics that you are not looking at when making that sort of comparison. You have to look at what comes before, what comes after, what gear is used, what class abilities, glyphs and all of that and how they all interact together to come to a more accurate assessment.

You also have to keep in mind that the specs and classes cater to personal preference, be it a raid preference or a leveling preference, PvP or just a perception of character. Millions of different personas play WoW, each for their own reasons, and I know there are lots of Hunters who like BM simply because they like having awesome pets, end of story, they don't care what a Warrior has at level 10.

Basically, taking a narrow focus of level 10 talents and disregarding everything else is ignoring a massive part of the game on many levels. Maybe Intimidation isn't so hot, maybe it will be changed, who knows. But the point is, WoW is very dynamic and there are many factors to consider in how it all works together.

Looking at the BM tree specifically, it is very Focus regen heavy (for both Hunter and pet), which looks to me like BM Hunters will be able to unload with everything they have very frequently, and be able to drop a lot of Kill Commands which look pretty integral to the spec. I do think Blizzard haven't really met their goal of "no boring talents" in BM, but I think the effects of the talents will actually be pretty neat, but they really don't read very well and I think they need to fine-tune some of the talent ranks (a 4 point talent in tier 1? That will change) to allow a smoother distribution of points. I honestly think BM will be putting out some very nice numbers but it also looks to be a significantly different playstyle than the other two Hunter specs and I can definitely see myself picking up a BM off-spec to give it a try.

[Ryai]

Looking at the BM tree specifically, it is very Focus regen heavy (for both Hunter and pet), which looks to me like BM Hunters will be able to unload with everything they have very frequently, and be able to drop a lot of Kill Commands which look pretty integral to the spec. I do think Blizzard haven't really met their goal of "no boring talents" in BM, but I think the effects of the talents will actually be pretty neat, but they really don't read very well and I think they need to fine-tune some of the talent ranks (a 4 point talent in tier 1? That will change) to allow a smoother distribution of points. I honestly think BM will be putting out some very nice numbers but it also looks to be a significantly different playstyle than the other two Hunter specs and I can definitely see myself picking up a BM off-spec to give it a try.

Now out of all that I am just going to quote one thing;

and be able to drop a lot of Kill Commands which look pretty integral to the spec.

And;

Kill Command

IE. That's our shot.

Our shot is our pet.

If our pet dies- we lose our shot. There is no improved revive pet.

We will be down ten seconds when pet dies- and have to heal it, and probably keep it at our side, before sending it in. Rez pet may even cost focus to use. Meaning BM hunters are further gimped.

This is not acceptable.

I want a shot. I don't want lol boy, go bite the target a bit harder, and plz plz don't die.

I don't care how much damage it does- my pets have died MORE times than any of my weapons have broken on me during a boss fight.

Edit: And my argument is acceptable because this is the same as saying Unholy DK's or Frost Mages must have their 'epic dps move' come from their pet.

Would they accept it? Oh hell no.

[Slickrock]

Well if there is no imp revive pet (or imp heals), perhaps it's time healers in the party pay attention to the pets as well....

However, I can count on two hands the number of times my pet has died in ICC (My pet died on Ahune during the festival than all my ICC raiding). But with pets doing more damage in Cata (didn't they say they were not going to do that?) perhaps pets will pull aggro more and splat.

We still have yet to see how they are going to normalize the pets and what the pet talents will look like, and we haven't seen all the hunter passive spells either, so there are a lot of unknowns still.

[Saturo]

Well if there is no imp revive pet (or imp heals), perhaps it's time healers in the party pay attention to the pets as well....

That will never happen. Almost all healers will consider keeping the pet alive the hunters duty, and really, it is. The only times a pet receives healing in a raid is trough stuff like Wild Growth and Chain Heal.

[Kalliope]

And as has been said before, passes on pets haven't been done yet and the talent trees aren't complete either.

Oh look, we've come full circle again. xD

[Saturo]

Even then, a BM hunter is dead without the pet, and removing Improved Ress is just stupid. Making it more fun by making it more unforgiving isn't what BM hunters want, I believe.

[Palladiamorsdeus]

I try to keep pet's alive if I have the time. But that's just me.

Also keep in mind that on the one hand, we'll only be able to toss off KC once every six seconds. We'll have enough focus to pop off arcane shot more often though. I hope.

But also, it all depends on the end results. If at the end of the day our 'machine gun' style deals comparible damage to the other two specs, then I'm happy. If, however, the MM standing next to me is only hitting twice to my three times, but he is hitting twice as hard, I won't be to pleased.

And yeah, but it's still interesting to debate.

[Kalliope]

Getting back to the more positive aspects, can any of the beta testers who are BM tell us how Rhumba's working for them? Is there a cool animation like for Cobra Strikes?

[Palladiamorsdeus]

Just asked Rikaku, she says Rumba is NYI currently.

[Anansi]

If our pet dies- we lose our shot. There is no improved revive pet.

We will be down ten seconds when pet dies- and have to heal it, and probably keep it at our side, before sending it in. Rez pet may even cost focus to use. Meaning BM hunters are further gimped.

This is not acceptable.

Then make sure your pet doesn't die. That has *always* been the core tenet of the BM spec and it has *always* been that a dead pet equals a very disadvantaged BM Hunter. Improved Revive Pet may show up as a Glyph as well, it seems suited.

I want a shot. I don't want lol boy, go bite the target a bit harder, and plz plz don't die.

I don't care how much damage it does- my pets have died MORE times than any of my weapons have broken on me during a boss fight.

Let me introduce you to Marksmanship and Survival. Both these specs are heavy on personal DPS rather than the pet (though a dead pet is still a DPS loss, just not as dire as with BM) and each feature special shots unique to the spec.

But out of curiousity, how does your pet die so much? Especially with Avoidance? My pet rarely dies, usually only if the tanks have died.

Edit: And my argument is acceptable because this is the same as saying Unholy or Frost Mages must have their 'epic dps move' come from their pet.

Would they accept it? Oh hell no.

Mages and DKs have their DPS based on their own skills (ie personal DPS), they don't have a pet-centric spec. The pets they get are more temporary DPS boosts like a Shaman's Elementals than a core component of their damage output.

[Mockingbird]

Now out of all that I am just going to quote one thing;

and be able to drop a lot of Kill Commands which look pretty integral to the spec.

And;

Kill Command

IE. That's our shot.

Our shot is our pet.

Indeed - that seems a very beast-masteryish thing to have.

If our pet dies- we lose our shot. There is no improved revive pet.

True, but we've not seen the prime glyphs yet, and pets will be receiveing full stats, right? Can we not therefore anticipate significantly higher pet health pools?

We will be down ten seconds when pet dies- and have to heal it, and probably keep it at our side, before sending it in. Rez pet may even cost focus to use. Meaning BM hunters are further gimped.

If our damage output is balanced around including that additional caretaking, that's not so much a gimping as it is a playstlye issue. (the usual IF they balance it right caveats included)

This is not acceptable.

I want a shot. I don't want lol boy, go bite the target a bit harder, and plz plz don't die.

I don't care how much damage it does- my pets have died MORE times than any of my weapons have broken on me during a boss fight.

How many broken weapons can be fixed by a castable-in-combat spell?
TBH, it sounds like you really, really don't want to be reliant on your pet for this much of your damage/utility which begs the question - why go BM? It's entirely centered around the pet!

[Slickrock]

Some other factors...

Armour set bonuses. The sole reason BM is still at all currently effective as raiding is the T10-2pc bonus. Take that away and there's no way I could raid. Have to see what the Cata bonuses are, or I might be keeping T10 for a long time. (That bonus, with Rowan's rifle, is really sweet).

Weapon speeds. Right now, the faster higher-damage guns benefit BM (like Rowan's), due to the speed but also the way damage is calculated on Steady Shot. We have to look at how Cobra shot damage is calculated, and how the weapons are itemized.

Nature damage. (and elemental damage for SV). If enough mobs in Cata raids are nature-immune (or elemental immune) that could kill BM (and SV) right there. You don't bring an ele Shammy to fight elementals. BM and SV might have the same problem in Cata.

[Slickrock]

Yeah, they are supposed to be making a pass at glyphs too...

[Kalliope]

Just asked Rikaku, she says Rumba is NYI currently.

Poo. I bet this will prove to be an interesting mechanic for BM hunters. At the very least, it gives you SOMETHING else to do. Plus, it'll be a mechanic unique to BM; the other specs don't currently have any abilities that require "charging up."

Improved Revive Pet may show up as a Glyph as well, it seems suited.

This is a really fantastic point. I'd actually love that for a pvp spec! Haven't had the points available to take it since BC.

[Anansi]

Poo. I bet this will prove to be an interesting mechanic for BM hunters. At the very least, it gives you SOMETHING else to do. Plus, it'll be a mechanic unique to BM; the other specs don't currently have any abilities that require "charging up."

Yeah, when the Hunter's pet is chewing the face off a mob the Hunter can activate the Rhumba vacuum and clean the place up a bit since they've got nothing else to do.

Actually, Marksmanship has Master Marksman which requires the charging up of five stacks of the proc to fire an instant free Aimed Shot.

[Kalliope]

Poo. I bet this will prove to be an interesting mechanic for BM hunters. At the very least, it gives you SOMETHING else to do. Plus, it'll be a mechanic unique to BM; the other specs don't currently have any abilities that require "charging up."

Yeah, when the Hunter's pet is chewing the face off a mob the Hunter can activate the Rhumba vacuum and clean the place up a bit since they've got nothing else to do.

Actually, Marksmanship has Master Marksman which requires the charging up of five stacks of the proc to fire an instant free Aimed Shot.

Dammit, I knew there was another new talent I was forgetting. Still, Rhumba is passive, so it won't take a global and it won't require the hunter to hit anything extra. That part is unique, at least!