Crappy Groups

[Sarayana]

After the first wipe on the last boss, I Inspected our tank. She was wearing mostly ret/healing gear. Also, she didn't know anything about a few of the fights, we had to explain it to her. Shouldn't the tank brush up on that sort of thing, seeing as it's usually their job to direct the bosses where they're supposed to go?

In the end almost the entire group was lecturing the tank on what to do for gear. I felt a little sorry for her if she's new to it, but at the same time, geez, get some defense gear!

I think it's great if the whole group could help her and she was receptive to the advice, but I gotta say... there's no stipulation that the tank has to lead the group. Now that most people have run most heroics to the ground, it makes sense since they can then set the pace, but I've often explained mechanics, kill order, or given directions to tanks that are new to an instance.

On the other hand, going into a dungeon as a tank with no tanking gear? No no no no no. Not in Northrend. You can ret tank all vanilla dungeons and most Outlands dungeons if you know what you're doing, but Northrend dungeons aren't simply a level harder. They're much harder and require more coordination, knowledge, and gear (and it's not like defense is an unknown stat... it's the most discussed tanking stat in Wotlk!). It's expected, seeing as you've had 70 levels to learn your class at that point. I hope you guys were able to help the tank improve.

[Kalliope]

After the first wipe on the last boss, I Inspected our tank. She was wearing mostly ret/healing gear. Also, she didn't know anything about a few of the fights, we had to explain it to her. Shouldn't the tank brush up on that sort of thing, seeing as it's usually their job to direct the bosses where they're supposed to go?

In the end almost the entire group was lecturing the tank on what to do for gear. I felt a little sorry for her if she's new to it, but at the same time, geez, get some defense gear!

I think it's great if the whole group could help her and she was receptive to the advice, but I gotta say... there's no stipulation that the tank has to lead the group. Now that most people have run most heroics to the ground, it makes sense since they can then set the pace, but I've often explained mechanics, kill order, or given directions to tanks that are new to an instance.

Totally agreed! Not every tank comes in with prior knowledge of an instance, or even tanking in general. It's a brave thing to try and do, since there's so many ways things can go wrong (or at least less smoothly). Healers at least don't have that particular pressure on them, so their bravery is of a different ilk. Instances can go MUCH more smoothly when a tank knows what they're doing and where they're going, but everyone's got to start someplace.

That said, it burns me to see non-defense gear on "tanks" in Northrend. Sigh. Tanks in Outland with defense gear are also a lot easier to heal, but it's less of a problem.

[Ryai]

That said, it burns me to see non-defense gear on "tanks" in Northrend. Sigh.

Oh tell me about it. I've had to heal a Scrub who was in LEVEL 60-62 QUEST GEAR. from HELLFIRE. And not even -dungeon- gear.

In AN.

And he kept blaming me raurg.

But anyways any time I see someone with bad gear- and they're decent enough. I point out Get a blacksmith to make you the basic cobalt tanking kit. I used it on my pally- I intend to use it on my War. I am going to use BS tank kit on my DK come the cata change.

But when I hovered over the tank real quick it said she had 12,000HP. I don't know anything about tanking, but I assume this is a pretty fail number for even a level 71 tank, 'cause two cleaves from the main boss would wipe her right out. That's when I realized the healer was doing a DAMN fine job keeping her alive, especially as a pally healer, which I know isn't an easy class to heal with.

And not to be rude- but you don't. 12 is FINE for UK. You want to get into dicey areas? Try healing someone with 10k. Or worse. 9k hp. 12 is about standard, even Caim was sitting around that much with his cobalt gear n quest menagere. Or however that word is spelled.

If she was being take down THAT fast, then she was NOT tanking right as a paladin. She probably didn't even have the right glyphs and or talents- as the only reason Caim wiped a group was when I accidently hit divine sacrifice.

Then ofc I dropped it. Remember, it's not always about Hitpoints- 12 should usually mean they have the right gear. But if they have that large a health pool, and are still being torn to shreds? Well, it's the same as when a guy with 30k tried to tank UP hc.

Oh he had the health. But did he have the gear? NOPE ALL DPS

[Kalliope]

Oh yeah, good call, Ryai; meant to comment on that. 12k in regular UK would have been fine. It was the lack of tanking stats that was the problem.

[Ryai]

Oh yeah, good call, Ryai; meant to comment on that. 12k in regular UK would have been fine. It was the lack of tanking stats that was the problem.

That or could be rotation- I remember before hitting a certain gear level [not been in PoS/FoS for a while so] I had to make sure to keep holy shield up -and- blessing of sanc. But now I don't. O_o well gotta keep BoS up.

Cause I go oom without it.

I tank to good, the healers complain I give them nothing to do.

[VelkynKarma]

Okay, my mistake. I've never tanked, and as I failed pretty hard at healing, I've never really had much understanding of how much health there should be. All I know was that the tank was getting hit like woah and her health would drop to half in the blink of an eye, and the healer kept bitching about her. I figured it was the health, but if it's the skills, nevermind XD

As for who leads--I was half getting ready to myself towards the end! I'm usually pretty used to the tank leading, so my apologies if I came off looking a little silly with that comment, XD But I'm more than willing to explain boss scenarios to somebody if they don't know the fight; I've been in that position WAY too many times to be snippy about that. But this person didn't even ask, just charged right in, which seems just foolish to me. After the final boss wipe we were all volunteering information on how to do it, and the second time we took him on it went fine, but the first time was a nightmare; Ingvar got pulled into the center of the fighting area somehow, the healer got interrupted by the roar, and then we all got smashed. Literally. Sigh.

~VelkynKarma

[Sarayana]

As for who leads--I was half getting ready to myself towards the end! I'm usually pretty used to the tank leading, so my apologies if I came off looking a little silly with that comment, XD But I'm more than willing to explain boss scenarios to somebody if they don't know the fight; I've been in that position WAY too many times to be snippy about that. But this person didn't even ask, just charged right in, which seems just foolish to me. After the final boss wipe we were all volunteering information on how to do it, and the second time we took him on it went fine, but the first time was a nightmare; Ingvar got pulled into the center of the fighting area somehow, the healer got interrupted by the roar, and then we all got smashed. Literally. Sigh.

Yeah, that just makes no sense. There's no shame in saying "guys it's my first time in here, does someone know the way/fights?" I've had tanks do exactly that, dps eyeroll over it, but the run then going perfectly well. Usually the added discussion about fights means everyone's more chatty at the end.

[Kalliope]

As for who leads--I was half getting ready to myself towards the end! I'm usually pretty used to the tank leading, so my apologies if I came off looking a little silly with that comment, XD But I'm more than willing to explain boss scenarios to somebody if they don't know the fight; I've been in that position WAY too many times to be snippy about that. But this person didn't even ask, just charged right in, which seems just foolish to me. After the final boss wipe we were all volunteering information on how to do it, and the second time we took him on it went fine, but the first time was a nightmare; Ingvar got pulled into the center of the fighting area somehow, the healer got interrupted by the roar, and then we all got smashed. Literally. Sigh.

Yeah, that just makes no sense. There's no shame in saying "guys it's my first time in here, does someone know the way/fights?" I've had tanks do exactly that, dps eyeroll over it, but the run then going perfectly well. Usually the added discussion about fights means everyone's more chatty at the end.

Less patient people aren't willing to stick with a new tank or sometimes new healers, just because they want to get in and out and be done fast. Now now now now NOW. -_- Some of such people would actually leave the group based solely on that. I'm not saying that they're the ones who should be catered to, since I think it's silly to do that so long as the tank/healer is willing to listen and learn, but that sort of pressure certainly contributes to people not being honest about their experience.

[Anansi]

Here's one from last night, an ICC25 man raid. About a month ago I went along on an ICC25 with another guild because they needed people to fill in the numbers to facilitate a full 25, and my guild and this other guild share some members and friendships. The run went great, I had a good time and all was well, the RL asked if he could friend me and have me come along for future 25s. I said sure, of course, I'd be happy to help out as they were friendly and good players.

Last night the RL asks me if I'd like to come along, sure says I. We get in, get ready and start the first trash pull. At this point the RL begins explaining that they are using points tonight (which is very hard to make out as the RL's mic is awful and thus he sounds like an adult from a Charlie Brown cartoon, and they didn't use a point system last time I ran with them) so I really don't get the gist of it all but I did hear that the pugs were seeded with points so we could compete for loot, so I didn't think much of it at that point. But I sent him a tell asking if indeed I was eligible for loot, he says absolutely.

Marrowgar drops, loot starts up. They basically use DKP but with an interface (the Raid Manager addon) and at this point I start to realise exactly what's going on. Everyone has 2500+ points because they get points in their 10 mans, and they seeded the pugs with 200. Myself and some fellow guildies who also came along realise we're screwed for loot because people are bidding large numbers but we stay for the duration of the Lower Spire because we're nice like that. We did voice concerns and were basically shot down, told to "raid more" and so on and so forth. WTF we're saying in our guild chat, we don't have any hope of getting loot and we're told to raid more and essentially told to shut up. I ask the RL if they regularly need people for 25s, he tells me they do them very rarely - last time they did 25 was when I was along.

So essentially, myself and my fellow guild-mates allowed this guild to run a 25 to get that loot, but we ourselves didn't have a hope of getting any at all. It was horrible, and we all bailed after Saurfang.

I have no problem at all with points systems, I tend to prefer a more structured loot system to random rolls, so I understand from where this other guild was coming. However, there was zero acknowledgment that the three of us from my guild were what allowed them to run this 25 man and get the loot they would not otherwise have got, and we're totally cut out of that. What they should have done was in deference to having non-guildies along was not use a point system and just do free roll.

It was awful and a total waste of time. They also had a Warlock who put out great DPS but could not switch targets to save their life. No Bonespikes attacked, and maybe one add for a second in Lady D, no Bloodbeasts attacked. That really grinds my gears so to speak (like ranged who top DPS in Toravon but have zero DPS on Frost Orbs). Just a terrible night all in all and definitely one for the Crappy Groups thread.

/rant

[VelkynKarma]

I'm not very knowledgeable when it comes to raid loot settings, but that doesn't sound fair all the same. If you're running exclusively with one guild, and all 25 members are from that one guild, then fine--it'd be reasonable to use whatever loot/point system you need for your guild. But if you're pulling other people in to fill in your extra spaces, it would be reasonable to give them a chance at the loot, and thereby incentive to stay, wouldn't it? You wouldn't hang around for nothing...

~VelkynKarma

[Kalliope]

That's really cruddy, Anansi. When a guild has to pug that many people to fill a raid to even run, then you're right; the dkp system should be dropped for that run.

It's very hard running with slower progressing guilds, in my experience. They don't get as far in the instances on their own, so when they do pug people, they still need loot from the early bosses and such, which gives pugs no chance for anything at all. My guild has been bringing pug-friends along lately, but since a lot of regulars are being cheap with their dkp (saving for things that don't ever drop....LIKE HUNTER WEAPONRY, grr), our pugs have a GOOD shot at winning 277 loot if the dice favor them. So even though their dkp is consistently lower than most of the regulars', they still stand a reasonable chance at upgrades, especially if we end up not doing hard modes for whatever reason.

You guys were VERY kind in sticking it out through the first wing.

[Sarayana]

Yeah it sounds like they're shooting themselves in the foot. My old raiding guild relied heavily on pugs through Naxx and Ulduar, and we always had open rolls for that reason. It netted us some solid, friendly guildies and guaranteed pug-returns when people saw that we weren't loot hoggers and played fair.

Guilds that don't treat pugs well do tend to find it harder and harder to fill those spots...

[Kalliope]

Yeah it sounds like they're shooting themselves in the foot. My old raiding guild relied heavily on pugs through Naxx and Ulduar, and we always had open rolls for that reason. It netted us some solid, friendly guildies and guaranteed pug-returns when people saw that we weren't loot hoggers and played fair.

Guilds that don't treat pugs well do tend to find it harder and harder to fill those spots...

^^
This.

The worst part is when those guilds are really relying on their pugs to get them through an instance/particular encounters. It just makes the whole thing that much more offensive.

[Anansi]

I'm not very knowledgeable when it comes to raid loot settings, but that doesn't sound fair all the same. If you're running exclusively with one guild, and all 25 members are from that one guild, then fine--it'd be reasonable to use whatever loot/point system you need for your guild. But if you're pulling other people in to fill in your extra spaces, it would be reasonable to give them a chance at the loot, and thereby incentive to stay, wouldn't it? You wouldn't hang around for nothing...

Quite right that it was not fair, and I have no idea what this guild was thinking, aside from greed for 25 man loot. I didn't need to be there for the badges, that's for sure. When you give someone 275 points and everyone else has 10 times that to spend, it's really rather insulting. If they wanted to stick with their points system so as to diminish reserves, then give the pugs a comparable amount of points. They really did not think this through at all.

That's really cruddy, Anansi. When a guild has to pug that many people to fill a raid to even run, then you're right; the dkp system should be dropped for that run.
You guys were VERY kind in sticking it out through the first wing.

Well, we take the reputation of our guild quite seriously and always want to make good impressions in a pugging environment, so we stayed as a matter of courtesy mostly, though on the more malicious side I kind of wanted our departure to leave them hurting a bit after making strong progress, to suddenly be stuck unable to continue, hopefully they'd realise that maybe they kind of screwed up.
This guild in question has a number of cross-guild memberships and friendships with our guild so it's not like it was a total strangers pug, and they basically treated us like crap by using us to gear themselves. Really poor form in my opinion.

Yeah it sounds like they're shooting themselves in the foot. My old raiding guild relied heavily on pugs through Naxx and Ulduar, and we always had open rolls for that reason. It netted us some solid, friendly guildies and guaranteed pug-returns when people saw that we weren't loot hoggers and played fair.
Guilds that don't treat pugs well do tend to find it harder and harder to fill those spots...

Dead on. I've been in guilds with specific loot systems, and if we pugged we dropped that system and went with straight rolls, it's the only fair thing to do. I know full well that neither myself nor my other guild mates, or likely anyone from my guild, will run with them now. I too have also seen good guild members come from pugging, and it's definitely easier to get pugs if your guild has a good reputation for fair play.

I hope they find it very hard if not impossible to do 25s from now on. I know they never post recruitment messages either on any forums nor in-game.

The worst part is when those guilds are really relying on their pugs to get them through an instance/particular encounters. It just makes the whole thing that much more offensive.

Very much so. They could not have even gone in to 25 ICC and gotten the loot they did if we hadn't come along, and yet we were afforded nothing at all (200 token points in the face of people with 2000-5000 points is insulting) in exchange for our help.

[VelkynKarma]

Bah, so I just had a bad run, and this time I think it was my fault!

Silinrul only needed 1 more badge to earn the t9 gloves, which would be her 4th set piece. I was all excited about getting my badge and my gloves, so I qued up for another random. Lo and behold, instead of one of the ones I'm used to, I pop into Heroic Forge of Souls!

Now understand, I've never done Forge of Souls before. Every time I've looked at the "specific" ques all the Icecrown heroics have been locked, so I figured I couldn't random into one either. Truth be told, based on what everyone's said around here, I don't think Sil was geared enough for it anyway--hell, her trinkets are still GREEN and she still has a few blues. Not only that but I have NO idea what any of the boss scenarios are or anything of that ilk.

I say so up front. Turns out I was randomed into a group that had already finished off the first boss, and probably kicked some of their DPS or something. They don't kick me outright, so I do my best to help with the trash and all that jazz.

Then we get to the final boss. Again, I ask what the rules for the boss are. "Tank and spank," one guy says, and the other, "Don't attack the mirror soul." Oh, okay. Easy enough. I figure it's probably some add he spawns or something; I don't know a damn thing about this guy.

Fight starts. I DPS as best as I can even if I'm last on the charts. Then I see the notice about Mirror Soul. Only it's a cast, not a spawn like I figured. I panic and stop attacking anyway, just in case; I have NO idea what's going on by this point and have no idea what I could be doing. Then a whole bunch of purple spirit things come out of nowhere and just glom onto me. I've been slowed or something, so I can't run, the tank isn't picking them up, and by this point I'm just totally clueless, have no idea what's going on, I'm stuck, and just...general storm of confusion. Ugh. I died shortly thereafter, not even halfway down the boss's health bar.

They beat it without me, but I felt really useless. I apologized, but didn't get a response about it. They even forgot to rez me, or maybe just didn't do it on purpose, I dunno...I had to ask for it. I got my last badge for my T9 gear, but I don't feel like I really earned it. Sigh.

After the fight I went back and read about the encounter to brush up on it just in case, but ugh. That really did a number on my confidence. >_<

~VelkynKarma

[Kalliope]

Velk, you did fine, so don't worry about it.

First off, Blizzard stealthily lowered the requirements to enter the ICC 5 after people's average item level on gear had a change to improve. Not your fault.

You didn't attack during mirrored soul, which was the most important thing you could do. I can't emphasize that part enough. A LOT of people know how that mechanic works and still dps through it anyway.

I can't tell exactly what happened to you, but I highly suspect that unless you wandered in front of the beam during the wail of souls phase or managed to stumble into a big purple circle on the floor (the boss marks the ground with those after he hops), that you died through no fault of your own. The spirits can't be tanked, but they can certainly be healed through. Since you didn't get resed at the end, I'm going to place at least some suspicion on the healer slacking or being undergeared. (I know how hard it can be to heal that fight while undergeared; the ghosts really did a number on Nastaran and I couldn't even keep myself up through that.)

A really good way to get used to that fight is to do it on normal mode in non-heroic FoS. Everything is far less fatal and it's easier to see what's going on. I'd recommend that for PoS and HoR as well, except once you've done them on normal, you can be randomed into them on heroic (once your gear level is high enough, anyway), since you're attuned. Actually, since you completed FoS, you can now be randomed into PoS anyway, so it might be a good idea to do them on normal after all. Plus you'll still get triumph badges from the bosses, and even some frost badges, if you go back to FoS and get that first quest done.

[Anansi]

Yeah, you were more on the ball than some people I've seen with that boss even when it's not their first time.

When he casts Mirrored Soul, stop attacking, and when he does the beam thing just stay behind him and DPS away. The ghosts that spawn can't be tanked or anything, they're just there to irritate you really, don't DPS them or anything, you can withstand the damage and they fade pretty fast.

I really like the Devourer of Souls actually, it's a pretty unique boss.

[VelkynKarma]

Hrm....that makes me feel a little better. I felt totally out of my element there, but you gusy' explanations already have me understanding the fight MUCH better. Thanks

And Kalli, I'll probably try out that suggestion tomorrow, trying the normal ICC heroics first. Once I understand a fight I usually do relatively well on it; it's just doing it the first time that's a killer.

~VelkynKarma

[Kalliope]

I forgot, I left a possible explanation for your death in my last post. The other dps might have killed you during mirrored soul, which would mean neither you nor the healer was at fault.

[VelkynKarma]

I suppose that's a possibility too. There were a lot of Mirrored Souls going on there, before and after I died, it was hard to keep track of'em all. Especially when I was busy panicking over what I might or might not have done wrong.

Oh! The healer was also a paladin, too. I imagine that would be a tough boss to heal as a pally? When a number of people are taking damage all at once? The tank from the boss, plus people getting swarmed, plus the mirror souls...?

~VelkynKarma