Survival or Marksmenship

[AnotherHunter]

Hello hunters,
Wanna get some advices what is best DPS spec for hunter these days. Currently I am kind of hybrid.



Thanks in advance

[Saturo]

I've found SV to be better than marks, but the difference was rather small. In some fights, BM and MM easily outperform SV, since they have pets that can do full damage while moving, or more instant casts.

I personally think of MM as more of an pvp spec.

[Karathyriel]

I "raided" the armoury and found every hunter in the more successful raidguilds to be SV-Hunters.

So I did just that and I'm happy with it.

[Ryno]

SV is the "in" raiding spec at the moment.

[Epicfail]

http://www.elitistjerks.com

One of the best sites for strong advice on specs, glyphs, gems, etc. Check the hunter forums out and see what the theory-crafters think of whats best. Here's a good place to start: http://elitistjerks.com/f74/t89218-hunt ... questions/

Personally, I enjoy marks more than surv.

1. Groups of adds - Your Volleys are stronger and you don't get interupted by damage.

2. The Marks (arp) rotation starts with SrS, CS, AiS, then SSx3 or 4, then the same rotation without SrS. Then KS each and every time it becomes available. Surv rotation starts ES, BA, AiS, SrS and then SS until ES and AiS come off cooldown while keeping BA and SrS up. Then, when LnL procs you ES, wait .5 sec and ES again. Then add KS at 20% and you have a lot of things bouncing around. Marks seems to take less decision making and fewer things to maintain. Is Mark and SrS up? Good. CS, AiS, SSx4. Both Mark and SrS will still be up unless you had to move and are coming back into your rotation. Lather Rinse Repeat.

3. Arp build relies heavily on physical shots which is exactly what CS, AiS and SS are. Get an Arp trinket (Grim Toll, Mjolner Runestone, Needle-Encrusted Scorpian) and build up your Arp Gear which isn't hard because its on 4 of 5 T10 pieces.

4. It really suits my playstyle. The only dot is SrS and once thats in, you just keep hitting things with direct damage. That and LnL procs remind me of Eclipse procs on my boomkin. Its hard to tighten a rotation when RNG determines what you do next ontop of paying attention to where you are standing and switching targets between adds and boss. I like simple. Simple is good.

[Gimlion]

Personally i've found it depends largely on preference and situation too... I know people who have switched to both MM and SV after BM nerf, but failed miserably b/c they didn't like it...

[Kalliope]

Uh...

Marks is the "in" raiding spec at the moment, but surv is still highly popular.

Playing style preferences aside, I'd suggest starting as surv with lesser gear.

[Ryno]

Marks is the "in" raiding spec at the moment, but surv is still highly popular.

Orly?

I haven't noticed a switch, but ok.

[Danielfboone]

All of the top Hunters in the top raiding guilds are currently MM. It holds a clear lead in actual parsed numbers and even more so in theorycrafted numbers. Check out the numbers on wowmeteronline.com and you will see that virtually all of the highest recently recorded numbers for Hunters come from the MM spec. Having said that, I raid as both MM and BM and there are still some fights where I can do better as BM. It really depends on your play style and ability. More than anything though, it depends on the encounter. Overall though, at this time, MM is the "in" spec.

[Saturo]

Yup, once your gear climbs over 230 item level marks is better.

[Aweena]

http://www.elitistjerks.com

One of the best sites for strong advice on specs, glyphs, gems, etc. Check the hunter forums out and see what the theory-crafters think of whats best. Here's a good place to start: http://elitistjerks.com/f74/t89218-hunt ... questions/

Personally, I enjoy marks more than surv.

1. Groups of adds - Your Volleys are stronger and you don't get interupted by damage.

2. The Marks (arp) rotation starts with SrS, CS, AiS, then SSx3 or 4, then the same rotation without SrS. Then KS each and every time it becomes available. Surv rotation starts ES, BA, AiS, SrS and then SS until ES and AiS come off cooldown while keeping BA and SrS up. Then, when LnL procs you ES, wait .5 sec and ES again. Then add KS at 20% and you have a lot of things bouncing around. Marks seems to take less decision making and fewer things to maintain. Is Mark and SrS up? Good. CS, AiS, SSx4. Both Mark and SrS will still be up unless you had to move and are coming back into your rotation. Lather Rinse Repeat.

3. Arp build relies heavily on physical shots which is exactly what CS, AiS and SS are. Get an Arp trinket (Grim Toll, Mjolner Runestone, Needle-Encrusted Scorpian) and build up your Arp Gear which isn't hard because its on 4 of 5 T10 pieces.

4. It really suits my playstyle. The only dot is SrS and once thats in, you just keep hitting things with direct damage. That and LnL procs remind me of Eclipse procs on my boomkin. Its hard to tighten a rotation when RNG determines what you do next ontop of paying attention to where you are standing and switching targets between adds and boss. I like simple. Simple is good.

aye they are awsome but mean if you try to post there just so you know the name is not for fun they really are eletists and jerks in some ways but awsome place to read about things

[kairii]

i personally think MM if you have enough ARP ofc :p and you can faceroll rotation and do 'imba' dps

[Danielfboone]

It's true that elitistjerks.com is a great place to garner information and the spreadsheet you can get from there is a great tool to use for making gearing, speccing, gemming, etc. decisions. You do have to be careful about posting in the forums though as you will get "infractions" for the most nit picky reasons. Such as asking a question they feel has already been answered and buried somewhere in their numerous forums. They do live up to their name at times but it's a good resource.

[Anansi]

i personally think MM if you have enough ARP ofc :p and you can faceroll rotation and do 'imba' dps

Not at all true, both of these perceptions are complete myths.

Myth #1 - Only go Marksman if you have enough ArPen: Marksmanship is a solid, competitive spec at any stage of the game in terms of DPS. If you do not have a significant amount of ArPen, you will be using Arcane Shot and be specced into Improved Arcane Shot. Once you reach a point where, because of accumulated ArPen, your Steady Shots are consistently doing more damage than your (Improved) Arcane Shots, you can and should consider dropping the 3 points in Improved Arcane Shot and the shot itself from your rotation. At this point you can expect to see a rise in DPS but the new rotation requires some extra skills (see below). This is not to say however that the spec is not viable previous to this change, it merely enters a second phase of functionality.

Myth #2 - Easy mode "faceroll" rotations: Simply untrue. To perform competitive raid-level DPS with the Marksmanship spec, the player needs to be able to manage their cooldowns and procs intelligently. This mis-perception of the spec likely stems from significant burst damage where the Hunter simply pops all their cooldowns and trinkets and unloads, leading to a burst of high DPS. However, in order to maintain this DPS over a boss fight, the player must be capable proper timing of their CDs and not necessarily unloading all at once.
If the player is using Arcane Shot, it requires the player to juggle three four shots (Chimera, Arcane, Aimed, Steady), being able to fire them off in a proper order and without losing time (it does make a difference, for example, if you shoot Aimed before Arcane or vice-versa, the player must determine which is best for them).
If the player is not using Arcane Shot because of a high ArPen, they must master timing movement to coincide with AutoShot since that physical damage shot is now more important. Running all over the place will result in a large DPS loss so the player needs to time their movement. This is not easy when you are trying to dodge all manner of Stuff You Shouldn't Stand In and switching targets, kiting and so forth.

TL;DR version: Marksmanship does not require a certain ArPen level and it is not a faceroll spec.

[Chrizesu]

i personally think MM if you have enough ARP ofc :p and you can faceroll rotation and do 'imba' dps

Myth #1 - Only go Marksman if you have enough ArPen: Marksmanship is a solid, competitive spec at any stage of the game in terms of DPS. If you do not have a significant amount of ArPen, you will be using Arcane Shot and be specced into Improved Arcane Shot. Once you reach a point where, because of accumulated ArPen, your Steady Shots are consistently doing more damage than your (Improved) Arcane Shots, you can and should consider dropping the 3 points in Improved Arcane Shot and the shot itself from your rotation.

Incorrect, you drop arcane shot when you reach about 40%/50% crit. Arcane shot is dropped due to its low critical damage, not because so much of the issue it also shares with armor pen.

Also you don't have to time auto shot so much now since blizz 'fixed' most of those issues.

[Danielfboone]

+1 to the above post by Anansi. There are actually two ways to build a MM spec and gear set. One is to go for and stack ArP and the other is to stack Agi. Both methods work .

The spec depends greatly on timing and proper use of rapid fire and readiness. If you are able to manage cooldowns and handweave shots, it is currently the best dps spec for Hunters. In my case, I have very poor keyboard skills and I have to look at the keyboard to find any of my keys. Therefore, I have to keep the number of keys I need to press to an absolute minimum and there can not be any combination presses. I can't watch timers and cooldowns very well so I have to use a castsequence macro for my basic shot rotation. This works fine if I don't have to move around and interrupt the sequence. What happens when you move is that the sequence picks up where it left off and Chimera shot may be ready to fire but won't until the cast sequence completes resulting in a loss of potential dps. I have no choice in this unfortunately, so I am not as effective in my MM spec as I could be. I still do pretty well considering my limitations but there are some fights where a lot of movement is required where I can do more damage in my BM spec. I have never done an arena battle and I think I may have dueled maybe 5 times in my 4 + years of playing the game. I admittedly suck badly at PvP and avoid one on one encounters as much as I can. (I'm also almost 62 years old )

Marksman is far from being a "face rolling" spec. It's a lot more complicated than BM and probably just as much as Survival (which I have never even tried). One thing I disagree with though is the elimination of Arcane shot from a MM rotation. I think it should always be used. It adds dps and is not mitigated by armor. I have also never seen Steady Shot average more damage per shot than Arcane even with 3 points in Improved Steady and none in Improved Arcane and a good amount of ArP with an ArP proc trinket.

I would say that the best major Glyphs for a MM Hunter are the Glyphs of Trueshot Aura, Serpent Sting, and Steady Shot. That combination shows the best dps numbers in my spreadsheet.

[Anansi]

Incorrect, you drop arcane shot when you reach about 40%/50% crit. Arcane shot is dropped due to its low critical damage, not because so much of the issue it also shares with armor pen.

This is incorrect. The reason Arcane Shot can be dropped after the point where Steady Shot is doing more damage is due to the fact that your physical DPS is now more potent. The crit issue is part of it yes, but more of an additional reason rather than the main reason to drop it. Overall you can do more DPS without Arcane once you reach a certain threshold.
Basically, you're dropping your lowest performing shot but doing so has it's own challenges. Now, each Hunter player needs to make the call for themselves and watch their damage reports to see when Steady is out-damaging Arcane consistently. I don't like to assign numbers to this point (such as 400 ArPen or 40% crit - and the 40-50% crit is a massive range and moving from 40% to 50% takes significant amount of gearing), so I prefer to say that the player needs to make the assessments for themselves.
Chances are that when they are moving through that 40% - 50% crit window they will also see their ArPen reaching the mid-400s, so the two items occur more or less at around the same progression point.

Also you don't have to time auto shot so much now since blizz 'fixed' most of those issues.

What are you referring to here? When I mention timing AutoShot, I mean in conjunction with moving. So you only move in staggered steps to facilitate AutoShot firing when it is ready. For me that's every 2 seconds, so I would move for just shy of 2 seconds, let AutoShot fire, move again, stop and so forth, rather than running in one go from point A to point B. Since the physical damage of AutoShot is more important, it's better for DPS to have it fire whenever possible.

There are actually two ways to build a MM spec and gear set. One is to go for and stack ArP and the other is to stack Agi. Both methods work .

Well you should always stack AGI. ArPen comes "passively" with gear, you shouldn't gem or enchant for it as you gain far more from +20 AGI than you do +20 ArPen.

I have to use a castsequence macro for my basic shot rotation. This works fine if I don't have to move around and interrupt the sequence. What happens when you move is that the sequence picks up where it left off and Chimera shot may be ready to fire but won't until the cast sequence completes resulting in a loss of potential dps.

You're right that a Castsequence macro is not optimal, but they are functional. And I think (macro experts can confirm or deny this) that you can put a reset quantifier in your macro that resets the sequence after so many seconds. That may help.

One thing I disagree with though is the elimination of Arcane shot from a MM rotation. I think it should always be used. It adds dps and is not mitigated by armor. I have also never seen Steady Shot average more damage per shot than Arcane even with 3 points in Improved Steady and none in Improved Arcane and a good amount of ArP with an ArP proc trinket.

Well what happens is that you're spending time and talent points on a low-performing shot. Yes, Arcane ignores armour but if you have a good amount of ArPen, things balance out and even tip to the favour of not using Arcane Shot. And as Chrizesu pointed out, Arcane has low critical damage so you can crit higher with something else.

I would say that the best major Glyphs for a MM Hunter are the Glyphs of Trueshot Aura, Serpent Sting, and Steady Shot. That combination shows the best dps numbers in my spreadsheet.

I use Steady Shot, Chimera Shot and Kill Shot. In a raid environment, having Kill Shot available more frequently helps a lot with bosses, particularly if you're running close to an Enrage timer and TSA can be canceled out by a Blood DK's Abomination's Might talent or Enhancement Shaman's Unleashed Rage talent so if that happens your glyph is useless.
But glyphs are meant to customise the character to suit the player's needs and situation, so those above details may be non-issues for someone.

[Chrizesu]

Well you should always stack AGI. ArPen comes "passively" with gear, you shouldn't gem or enchant for it as you gain far more from +20 AGI than you do +20 ArPen.

ArP is one of those odd stats that 'gets better the more you have'. This has to do with the really odd equation set to it.
It's also a stat that shouldn't be stacked for survival but benefits marksmen nicely in a determinable range. I believe elitist jerks has a post somewhere on the optimal numbers for ArP.
This is also why Marks is considered the ArP spec.

Also remember your pet gets nothing off of your ArP.

What are you referring to here? When I mention timing AutoShot, I mean in conjunction with moving. So you only move in staggered steps to facilitate AutoShot firing when it is ready. For me that's every 2 seconds, so I would move for just shy of 2 seconds, let AutoShot fire, move again, stop and so forth, rather than running in one go from point A to point B. Since the physical damage of AutoShot is more important, it's better for DPS to have it fire whenever possible.

I thought you mentioned something about timing your auto shots with your other attacks. This isn't as necessary anymore as autoshot will stick itself between your steadyshots/ect now.

I use Steady Shot, Chimera Shot and Kill Shot. In a raid environment, having Kill Shot available more frequently helps a lot with bosses, particularly if you're running close to an Enrage timer and TSA can be canceled out by a Blood DK's Abomination's Might talent or Enhancement Shaman's Unleashed Rage talent so if that happens your glyph is useless.
But glyphs are meant to customize the character to suit the player's needs and situation, so those above details may be non-issues for someone.

You should also use Aimed Shot and Silence Shot. Silence Shot has no shared or global cooldowns and is now macro'd even to other moves. Aimed Shot's damage rises incredibly with gear and ArP. There was a discussion some time ago where Aimed was overtaking Chimera Shot damage.

[Anansi]

I thought you mentioned something about timing your auto shots with your other attacks. This isn't as necessary anymore as autoshot will stick itself between your steadyshots/ect now.

Oh I know that. No, I was referring to timing AutoShot with your movement.

You should also use Aimed Shot and Silence Shot. Silence Shot has no shared or global cooldowns and is now macro'd even to other moves. Aimed Shot's damage rises incredibly with gear and ArP. There was a discussion some time ago where Aimed was overtaking Chimera Shot damage.

I was talking about glyphs, in response to Danielfboone's comment on which glyphs he used, not shot rotation.

[Chrizesu]

You should also use Aimed Shot and Silence Shot. Silence Shot has no shared or global cooldowns and is now macro'd even to other moves. Aimed Shot's damage rises incredibly with gear and ArP. There was a discussion some time ago where Aimed was overtaking Chimera Shot damage.

I was talking about glyphs, in response to Danielfboone's comment on which glyphs he used, not shot rotation.

Ah, I thought Steady Shot glyph didn't stack with one of the marksmen talents.