So, foxes then?!

[Dizzy]

It's actually not as odd as you might think. An animal raised from birth by humans is going to natural be more mild and gentle then a wild counterpart. A lot of it depends on the type of attention paid to said animal. Certain instincts will of course be there, but you can effect a lot of an animals growth just by your own behavior towards them during their developmental years. Well, developmental times.

this is 100% true, which is why it pisses me off when animals get put down and whatnot because some jerkoff raised their pet to be a ferocious beast.
if you raise an animal from a young age and teach it to be a certain way, it's going to do it.
animals aren't retarded, they have brains. they learn stuff.

[Acherontia]

They mention the legality of -exotic- pets, and only at the bottom of the page--up top, they say "absolutely, you can have one." But the thing is, foxes are native to the US, and native species have an entirely different (non-exotic) set of laws governing them. I rehabbed wildlife for awhile and I can tell you you need a special permit to keep native species in your home. Generally (depending on where), you need permits for either education or rehabilitation purposes.

That said, there's a lot of animals (mute swans and starlings, for example) that actually aren't native, so aren't covered by "native species" law. I don't know if these foxes are the same as North American ones (haven't checked the species name) but I can't see many officials being willing to make the distinction.

[VelkynKarma]

They're cute! I suppose it'd be kinda cool to have a pet fox. But it's a moot point as they're totally illegal in my state, plus I don't exactly have six grand on hand to buy one Even if I did, that'd go towards, y'know, paying off my school loans or finding an apartment first.

They are cute though. The kits are positively ADORABLE!

~VelkynKarma

[Ryai]

They mention the legality of -exotic- pets, and only at the bottom of the page--up top, they say "absolutely, you can have one."

Well it is true to an extent. Absolutely, you can have one... if you're elidgable or whatever the word is. And they're silver foxes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tame_Silver_Fox

And if I remember right silver foxes aren't native to America.

You're right, Ryai, but what I was getting at was that I don't think these foxes are quite safe enough to be bought by a ditsy rich family that will pamper it like their purebred Pomeranian.

They're safer than the ball pythons I had. Do you know the majority of the ball pythons in petstores at around the time I obtained mine, were usually wild captures or first generation from wild captures? Yet I had two ball pythons, raised them, had a guy who couldn't sex animals worth shit tell me my little midgets were both female when they were males as I now know. And they ONLY bit me when they were almost starving because my dad was to lazy at the time to actually even try to get feeder mice and rats for them, and we finally had to give them to a zoo here basically.

And I had my snakes from when I was around nine. I was asked, hey, kid, which do you want. A Disney trip or a snake?

I chose a snake.

[Acherontia]

And if I remember right silver foxes aren't native to America.

As far as I know, the "silver fox" isn't a species; it's a color morph of the red fox (vulpes vulpes?) which is native to the US.

[Teigan]

.

[Saturo]

Tough it can be argued that they are a new race of fox, seeing as they behave and look differently from normal foxes... But isn't importing foreign animals illegal overall? I mean, look at what happened in Australia...

[Acherontia]

They're not foreign and that's probably the biggest legal issue. In the US, non-native species can, in some places and with certain permits, be kept as 'exotic' pets. But to have a NATIVE species as a pet is -generally- illegal. It's for a variety of reasons, the main 2 being that if it escapes into the wild it can wreak havoc and because the capture and trade of indigenous animals could be detrimental to native populations.

Btw, I did look them up, and silver foxes are definitely just a color of the "red fox."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silver_fox_%28animal%29

The Silver Fox is a melanistic colour variant of the red fox (Vulpes vulpes).

The most interesting thing is this:

Silver foxes in Russian fur farms are of North American stock

Which actually means the color morph ITSELF is from North America--whether the US or Canada it doesn't say, but they're apparently found in both.

Also, how cool is this? Apparently the Coat of Arms of Prince Edward Island:



Anyway, I can see foxes being -the- pet if they grow in popularity. The whole issue would be getting the "created" race recognized as a subspecies somehow, the way dogs are to wolves--but whether there's enough scientific reason to do so, I've no idea

[Saturo]

Anyway, I can see foxes being -the- pet if they grow in popularity. The whole issue would be getting the "created" race recognized as a subspecies somehow, the way dogs are to wolves--but whether there's enough scientific reason to do so, I've no idea :P

Based on what I know, which admittedly ain't much, I'm an engineer (well, kind of...), not a biologist(!), they should classify. They have enough physical and social differences at least. I've seen species that look and act the same get classified as different, at least. :P

[Quin]

That's really interesting! I wouldn't spend almost $6,000 on one, but they are a very interesting pet.

And yes, the kits are downright adorable!

[Acherontia]

They definitely seem to act and look different. If they truly have lost their smell, that's another point for 'new' species.

I imagine that if they became popular enough, they'd be classed as legal/pet anyway. That said, I don't know if there's a scientific requirement about genetic difference for species splitting--or if the "new" species has to only mate with its own kind, and not wild foxes, etc.

I remember one of the anti-arguments when they stuck dogs back in with wolves (they are a subspecies of wolf rather than a separate species, since the mid-90s--amusing when some state laws still utterly outlaw 'canis lupus')... well anyway, one of the people who DIDN'T want dogs put back under the "wolf" species used the argument that wolves and dogs don't freely interbreed.

Someone then brought up an excellent, scientifically accurate point: "Duh."

They're social, they chase off and kill outsiders, of course they won't breed with random newcomers. It makes me wonder if these foxes, if they were suddenly released into the wild, would actually interact with and breed back with wild red foxes? Or would they be scared, and avoid them?

Or, best question maybe, would they even survive? What's the chances they've been so domesticated within 50 years that they're utterly dependant on humans for survival, I wonder?

(Edit: obviously even wild animals suddenly released into wilderness may die. But I mean, on equal footing--would kits from these foxes, raised by wild foxes, have the same reflexes, instincts etc?)

[Fael]

I had been really interested in these Russian foxes in the past and have wondered from time to time if and where they'd start selling them, so thanks very much for the link!

Some time ago while looking up info about the foxes I had come across this project: Study of the Molecular Basis of Tame and Aggressive Behavior in the Silver Fox Model.
It involves the exact same foxes. There were two videos they shared on youtube which was how I initially found it. In these they tested the reactions of an aggressive fox and a docile fox to human proximity and interaction:
Aggressive Fox Video
Docile Fox Video

I thought I'd share it in case it's interesting or helpful to anyone.

I've long loved the idea of a fox as a pet, they're beautiful and interesting creatures, but they truly aren't suited for a house. Fennecs have seemed to have become a bit more adaptable as a house pet but I have read that they need a lot of attention to keep them more tame. The red foxes I have seen sometimes seem sweet but also just appear so much more out of place and rather anxious or neurotic. Having destructive habits, a strong musk and marking their territory are other issues I've kept in mind, but overall it is the fact that what truly makes them a fox is what also makes them intended for an outdoor life. I'm really curious to see how things will progress with these Russian dog-like foxes. I would never buy an animal for so much money but I hope to hear more about them from the owners. It would be really interesting to read about various owners' experiences with these animals to learn more about their nature and find out how different they truly are from a fox.

Thinking about foxes as pets also reminds me a little about a certain coyote pet/relationship which turned out remarkably well: http://www.dailycoyote.net/
Charlie was not specially bred however, he was rescued as an orphaned cub and it's been 3 years since he came to live with a woman, her cat and her dog in Wyoming. He is a wild animal yet chooses to remain with her. That site has so many great pictures!

[Acherontia]

Thanks SO MUCH for those links, they are fascinating!! The tame fox just looks exactly like a submissive, friendly dog. It's creepy that personality can be so... controlled, or pre-determined, by genes. What this makes me think about in terms of uniqueness, the qualification of life and soul and so forth is just creepy in the end. Scientifically, though, it's REALLY interesting.