Why should SV / MM hunters get Exotic Beast families?

[Kayb]

remember when BM received its first major overhaul? like, a year or two before BC? holy moly, was it ever THE spec to be for raw power

[Teigan]

Lacking the enthusiasm to read through all this...is there any news in here or is it speculation and debate? Thanks!

[Royi]

yeah what was this one all about anyways? Are they considering removing "exotic"?

[Vephriel]

This entire thread is just speculation/debate, this isn't a change being implemented.

[Shandorei]

People keep making it sound like we want to take the BM tree as it is right now (or in Cata), then take Exotics away. That's not what I'm saying. I was saying that ideally I would like the exotics tag to go away completely; and furthermore, get rid of any family-specific special abilities to boot, and just give pets talent trees that we get to pick. That way we truly would have the freedom of choice to bring any pet anywhere we want without gimping ourselves, our groups, or our raids. I hear that's Mania's vision, too.

But until BM gets fixed (and I'm sorry, I don't have any suggestions because I'm not a game developer >.>), then BM should keep exotics. But honestly, I feel their final talent is pretty pathetic anyway.

I don't understand why people make it seem like I want to just rip it away from them NAO RIGHT NAO!!! I'm BM at heart, just like the rest of you, but I try to keep an open mind and hope for a time when we can bring our favorite pet regardless of whether it's a devilsaur or a frigging monkey, and regardless of spec. The other two specs have people who love their pets just as much as those in BM. I'm survival right now because I personally feel the BM shot rotation is boring and too restrictive for movement-heavy fights. But that doesn't make me a heartless jerk who'd throw my pet over a cliff if the situation required it.

I was BM for a long time, well before exotics were even in the picture. It worked back then, and I still had fun. The devs need to go back in time and see what BM looked like back then, and bring it back (because I don't remember exactly to be honest, lol).

Yes, yes right. I agree that in our state at the moment the exotic pets should not be taken away, but even if the spec got better it would still be a bonus to just have it. Not an unfair bonus, but like a cool and simple one that really make the tree stand out.

Also, about giving abilities to any pet.. I believe the abilities are balanced around the pet itself, like the Chimaera, it has a VERY powerful kiting move, but in return it has awful damage stats and such. If we were to give any ability to any pet that would need a very big remake, and if it didn't get one I could for example get a VERY hard hitting Devilsaur and give it... Hmm ... Why not Ravage (Knockdown), the Chimaera special kite ability, Prowl... Etc.

I can see your idea, but really, I think there is way more hunters that roll only to have those cool looking pets to really stand out therefore rolling BM and enjoy it even at it's current state.

I wonder how many there truly is that wouldn't enjoy been taken away that specialty only to get a shot like Cobra Shot in return.

Also I would of course accept and move on if such a change happened, because I love the hunter class so much, but at the moment I am JUST fine with it, there is a dual-spec here for a reason, so people have the opportunity to do more things they enjoy.

I am raiding as SV myself, and I have no problem whatsoever about changing spec and be without my pet for two hours, EVERYTHING else I do is in my favorite BM spec, and its completely fine to other, even if they comment on it I still enjoy it having this in the back of my mind:

-"I would totally own that guy in a duel"

Instances, PvP of all kinds, chilling in SW. Don't let someone else control your way of playing, I have raided in PvP gear, I have raided in BM, it IS possible. And if you enjoy SV AND the special pets I would notify you that you shouldn't expect to get everything at once in a game, I would love bladestorm on my hunter, but no, not going to happen.

[Turgus]

To me this entire thread seems to boil down to two groups of thought. (Yes there are probably more.)

The first group enjoys having their exotic pet being a BM hunter, and feel that it is what helps define them from the other specced hunters and would not want to give that up baring some other major BM defining ability. (See duel pet talent idea.)

The other group also enjoys exotic pets, but they want to have them while being specced in a different tree (Marksman or Survival.)
They do not know what ability to give BM hunters to replace it, but they are against BM hunters getting two pets.

There is a little disagreement within the two groups, some want pets to lose all of their abilities and have them in the pet talent tree somehow. Some want Marksman to not have to have a pet and instead get a damage buff.
Overall, its like religion and politics, everyone has an opinion on the matter, and none of them are the same, lol

In the end I feel that BM hunters shouldn't have to have Exotic Pets as a class defining ability. There should be something else, something substantial that is as useful and powerful as the other specs 51st talent.
And the only thing I can think of that fits with the BM theme, would have a substantial impact on gameplay like the other 51st talents is the Duel Pet Talent Idea. Nothing else comes close. (and I haven't read of any other ideas)


It just seems to me that people want to have both the Power and Utility of MM or SV while getting the cool and unique pets that BM gets. (i.e they get everything, and have to sacrifice nothing)

Thats just how I see it.

[Acherontia]

To me this entire thread seems to boil down to two groups of thought. (Yes there are probably more.)

The first group enjoys having their exotic pet being a BM hunter, and feel that it is what helps define them from the other specced hunters and would not want to give that up baring some other major BM defining ability. (See duel pet talent idea.)

The other group also enjoys exotic pets, but they want to have them while being specced in a different tree (Marksman or Survival.)
They do not know what ability to give BM hunters to replace it, but they are against BM hunters getting two pets.

I think you're missing the major third, which is a good chunk of people:

The BM hunters who do not want "exotics"--fairly useless, sparkly pets--to be the defining characteristic of the spec. I'm happy raiding as a BM hunter with a wolf.

I love my devilsaur, but the spirit beasts, worms etc just aren't enough to "define" a spec. I just think we need something more than pretty pets to define a class; there's no excuse for them being weaker than all the others. Then again, regarding that weakness--I don't see it >.< Been out-dpsing mm/surv hunters consistently. And I still would have no problem letting them have exotics too--it's just not a big deal to me. I feel bad that there's probably people out there who like a certain spec, but can't have the pet they want with that spec. Just seems silly.

[Shandorei]

To me this entire thread seems to boil down to two groups of thought. (Yes there are probably more.)


.......


It just seems to me that people want to have both the Power and Utility of MM or SV while getting the cool and unique pets that BM gets. (i.e they get everything, and have to sacrifice nothing)

Thats just how I see it.

Which is what I just said, people can't and shouldn't get to have everything, in the end that could perhaps make the class boring, perhaps!

I feel bad that there's probably people out there who like a certain spec, but can't have the pet they want with that spec. Just seems silly.

Just what I said above, I'd love to have Blade Storm on my hunter, but I would need to roll a warrior instead, something like that, only that it is an even minor problem we are looking at, it is just to activate an secondary specialization.

I would love to have Explosive Shot while raiding! Hey! I can!!! All I need to do is to activate my secondary spec, bye bye Devilsaur/Core Hound/ Spirit Beast / x, see you in about 3 hours!

It is a simple example, but I think it really shouldn't be a problem, and also as I said, you CAN raid with BM, and you CAN raid with the pet you want. You just need to convince and talk to people, be nice and they'll let you keep the pet you want in the raid. Of course not every single raid, but most. If they really demand you to do things, just think it's for the people in the raids best.


Acherontia raids! In BM!!

[Silvarain]

In the end I feel that BM hunters shouldn't have to have Exotic Pets as a class defining ability. There should be something else, something substantial that is as useful and powerful as the other specs 51st talent.
And the only thing I can think of that fits with the BM theme, would have a substantial impact on gameplay like the other 51st talents is the Duel Pet Talent Idea. Nothing else comes close.

so true

the last big talent in BM should be pet/animal based for the simple fact that its the BM tree. i would ok with a actual shot, but id rather have dual pets. make them do half damage and attack the same target, i dont care; hell id be fine if the second was just a copy of the first. im sure it could be done. other than that whatever other last point talent would just be a copy of sorts of the other two trees. however if blizz made rumba a bit more powerful in some way it COULD be the BM shot. but id still rather have dual pets!

i dont mind... "no more exotics" (Scarlet Witch?! whered you come from?)... but i dont care what anyone says: those four extra pet points are NOT tree defining to me! they may be VERY helpful at lower levels, but not tree defining.

[Lunaspike]

I think you're missing the major third, which is a good chunk of people:

The BM hunters who do not want "exotics"--fairly useless, sparkly pets--to be the defining characteristic of the spec. I'm happy raiding as a BM hunter with a wolf.

I love my devilsaur, but the spirit beasts, worms etc just aren't enough to "define" a spec. I just think we need something more than pretty pets to define a class; there's no excuse for them being weaker than all the others. Then again, regarding that weakness--I don't see it >.< Been out-dpsing mm/surv hunters consistently. And I still would have no problem letting them have exotics too--it's just not a big deal to me. I feel bad that there's probably people out there who like a certain spec, but can't have the pet they want with that spec. Just seems silly.

I agree with you completely. My main is a paladin. let me tell you IT SUCKS having your entire class not only defined, but balanced around one thing. For bm it's a spec, balanced and defined by an exotic pet. Well, on my hunter, I have a bm spec, and mm. On BOTH I use the same pet, my kitty. I love him, I have screen shots of us predating when most of you probably started playing. I got him the minute I could. It was the first time I had left the barrens or mulgore. It was scary, but I did it. I walked away with my kitty, and haven't looked back. He had to take a break while I played paladin because my guild needed a healer at the time. Now that I have my own guild I picked up right where we left off.

Now do you know why I like MM? Huh? Because of that burst it offers me in pvp. I can hit hard and fast while my cat stealths in and attacks. My cat is not just an extra weapon, it's something I depend on. Now I don't have to be a bm to feel that way.

My point is, that even when I am bm I still use that cat. If you honestly want BM to become anything more than a second rate brushover you should hope like hell they give exotic to all specs. Then you know what they will do. They will actually balance you around damage and utility instead of your shiny pet.

But go ahead, be like the retard paladins that want to hang onto their bubble as long as they can. They want to keep it, even with the duration being nerfed etc. They are determined to hang onto that bubble. When if we just lost it we could finally be balanced around the burst damage and survivability of other classes. Instead of how it is now, with so much of our stuff being balanced with defensive cds.

[Turgus]

I think you're missing the major third, which is a good chunk of people:

The BM hunters who do not want "exotics"--fairly useless, sparkly pets--to be the defining characteristic of the spec. I'm happy raiding as a BM hunter with a wolf.

I didn't mention the group of BM hunters that don't use Exotic pets for a specific reason.
In any real sense, they don't have a stake in this debate.
They won't be affected if the other hunter specs either get or don't get the ability to tame and use Exotic Pets.
But, in fairness, they do have a voice and an opinion that does matters.

Well, on my hunter, I have a bm spec, and mm. On BOTH I use the same pet, my kitty. I love him, I have screen shots of us predating when most of you probably started playing. I got him the minute I could.

Congratulations, seriously. It is pretty rare for a hunter (from my experience) to hold onto a pet that long.
I have had a pet for 20 or so levels, but hardly any longer than that when I was leveling.

As for the fact that you have been playing longer than most people, it does not give your position any more strength than me saying the same thing.
I find it akin to the statement "I love puppies."
Sure it is nice, but it has no real bearing on the argument, unless of course it is an attempt at a red herring (and/or an argument from authority) and make it seem that the person with the opposing viewpoint has a weaker argument because of how long he/she has played the game.
In that case, it really just shows the weakness of the argument when one has to fall back on these logical fallacies.

My point is, that even when I am bm I still use that cat. If you honestly want BM to become anything more than a second rate brushover you should hope like hell they give exotic to all specs. Then you know what they will do. They will actually balance you around damage and utility instead of your shiny pet.

Blizzard has done away with the damage bonus that exotic pets get over their counterparts. So the only difference in their damage is specifically based on their species specific skills. These are going to be changed in Cataclysm to various buffs/debuffs more akin to the rhino ability than they are currently.
So in effect, they are going to be balanced around type i.e utility (tenacity, ferocity, cunning) and damage (buff/debuff) like you mentioned.
In essence, they are going to be just "shiny pets."
So why should I want other specs (marksman and survival) to get exotic pets when their superiority as BM pets is non-existent?

But go ahead, be like the retard paladins that want to hang onto their bubble as long as they can.

I am not sure where this comes from.
But until BM gets something that is akin to Chimera Shot or Explosive Shot, or the ability that is seriously discussed to take its place, don't try to take the Tame Exotic Pet from them. (and me.)
It is a 51 pt talent.
Sure it is pretty lame.
But try to treat it like it means something, because to the BM hunters that care about it, it does.
It is not some lame "everyone should get a class specific mount like paladins do" kind of argument.

They want to keep it, even with the duration being nerfed etc. They are determined to hang onto that bubble.

Yes, I am determined to hang onto my Tame Exotic Pets ability, it is not some game breaking mechanic, which allows me to do tons of damage while making me completely immune to retaliation. (unless the opponent just happens to be a priest)
It is a mostly cosmetic ability, true, but I will be damned if I just let it go without something substantial to take its place.

Thats my 2 cents, for the moment.

[Slickrock]

Blizzard has done away with the damage bonus that exotic pets get over their counterparts. So the only difference in their damage is specifically based on their species specific skills. These are going to be changed in Cataclysm to various buffs/debuffs more akin to the rhino ability than they are currently.
So in effect, they are going to be balanced around type i.e utility (tenacity, ferocity, cunning) and damage (buff/debuff) like you mentioned.
In essence, they are going to be just "shiny pets."

Not entirely true. Trexs are still above the rest in what they can do, but spirit beasts were hit hard to keep them from becoming FOTM. The exotics do give a better family racial generally, even if they aren't balanced.

It will be interesting to see if the exotics are only that due to a false rarity, once everything else is balanced out. If that's the case, and a trex is doing the exact same dps as a raptor, then I'll be yelling for the 51-pointer to be changed. Because at that point, the only thing the 51-pointer gives is the extra 4 pet talent points.

We need to see the pet talent pass. Any further argument is really spitting in the wind until we see what Blizz has planned.

[Acherontia]

I didn't mention the group of BM hunters that don't use Exotic pets for a specific reason.
In any real sense, they don't have a stake in this debate.
They won't be affected if the other hunter specs either get or don't get the ability to tame and use Exotic Pets.
But, in fairness, they do have a voice and an opinion that does matters.

I think you're missing my point entirely. I do use my Devilsaur. My point is this:

There are BM hunters (like myself) who would prefer that our class was taken seriously and balanced around something other than what are essentially cosmetic differences (bar the devilsaur). And there are those of us, also, who don't care that if the other specs get exotics, or even would like them to despite never playing them.

Please don't try and split the points of view here into two clear-cut ones and tell me my (and many others') view doesn't "have a stake in this debate," because I think the whole idea of exotics being BM-only, coming from a BM hunter, is silly considering we are still outperformed. I stand by what I said before--that I think anyone should be able to use the pet they love, despite using a different spec that they may also love. The idea of exotics being BM only is neat, I admit, but I don't see it being nice to those who have to choose between two of their likes. And don't say "swap to your offspec," lol, you can't raid with both specs at once.

[cowmuflage]

"swap to your offspec" is such a dumb thing to say when you think about it. It makes the person saying it look like they don't think before posting alot of times.

[Turgus]

Pets -- We haven't done our design pass on them yet. The design is for them to no longer receive raid buff since they get complete scaling from the master (and we don't want them to double dip). Their abilities will be divided into 3 categories: basic focus dumps (e.g. Claw), specials (e.g. web), and exotic abilities for the BM exotic pets. Specials never cost focus and basics have short cooldowns but meaningful damage. All pets will do the same dps. We don't want "wolf or die" in Cataclysm (and before that it was cat). Each pet family will bring a unique raid buff, allowing hunters to be wildcards for when you are lacking something. The ease of swapping pets will facilitate this further

http://thehuntersrefuge.blogspot.com/20 ... anges.html

I wasn't able to find the specific blue post, because I remember reading this on the WoW forums.
I know that the post is a bit older, since it does talk about pets getting "complete" scaling.

This is what they (Blizzard) have stated they are planning, now what will actually happen, well.... we will all see.

...There are BM hunters (like myself) who would prefer that our class was taken seriously and balanced around something other than what are essentially cosmetic differences...

Yes, I am one of the people that wants "our class" to be taken seriously, and I want all of the specs to competitive with each other (within 2-3% dps of each other) while still maintaining their own abilities that are unique and have a different play style (as much as you can playing a single role class.)

Apparently you have missed my entire point. Since I feel that you have misunderstand my position on this issue, let me clarify it.

My point is this: Until Blizzard replaces the 51 pt talent in BM with something competitive (like duel pets, or a cool ability like Rhumba) don't expect me to go along with the idea of allowing "Just any old hunter" getting the ability that is a 51 pt talent for BM hunters.

If you disagree on this point with me, then so be it. But, at least you will understand what my point is.

[Slickrock]

Pets -- We haven't done our design pass on them yet. The design is for them to no longer receive raid buff since they get complete scaling from the master (and we don't want them to double dip). Their abilities will be divided into 3 categories: basic focus dumps (e.g. Claw), specials (e.g. web), and exotic abilities for the BM exotic pets. Specials never cost focus and basics have short cooldowns but meaningful damage. All pets will do the same dps. We don't want "wolf or die" in Cataclysm (and before that it was cat). Each pet family will bring a unique raid buff, allowing hunters to be wildcards for when you are lacking something. The ease of swapping pets will facilitate this further

http://thehuntersrefuge.blogspot.com/20 ... anges.html

I wasn't able to find the specific blue post, because I remember reading this on the WoW forums.
I know that the post is a bit older, since it does talk about pets getting "complete" scaling.

This is what they (Blizzard) have stated they are planning, now what will actually happen, well.... we will all see.

Well, the question is, if each pet gets a focus dump, a special, and then the exotics get another, as that would seem to imply, then that might give the exotics that extra boost. Or the exotic talent might replace the special, and do xx% more damage than a standard pet. Who knows at this point. They probably haven't figured it out yet themselves.

I remember seeing the same post, and being glad for cats and netherrays, but concerned for other reasons.

So we just have to wait and see.

[Acherontia]

My point is this: Until Blizzard replaces the 51 pt talent in BM with something competitive (like duel pets, or a cool ability like Rhumba) don't expect me to go along with the idea of allowing "Just any old hunter" getting the ability that is a 51 pt talent for BM hunters.

And I think Blizz should replace that 51 talent point, as well. My point was that leaving out of the "2 schools of thought" debate the BM hunters who don't like Exotics being our 51 is missing a big portion of the posters here.

[Rhyela]

My point is this: Until Blizzard replaces the 51 pt talent in BM with something competitive (like duel pets, or a cool ability like Rhumba) don't expect me to go along with the idea of allowing "Just any old hunter" getting the ability that is a 51 pt talent for BM hunters.

And I think Blizz should replace that 51 talent point, as well. My point was that leaving out of the "2 schools of thought" debate the BM hunters who don't like Exotics being our 51 is missing a big portion of the posters here.

And I'm one of those hunters, too, Acherontia. I love BM and hate that my 51-point talent is so...empty. I bring my devilsaur when I raid as BM just because I like my devilsaur. When you come down to it, a raptor or wolf is actually better for me considering my gear. That's just wrong. BM needs much, much more than 4 extra points and some shiny pets.

And their whole "we want hunters to have freedom of choice" but "exotics get an extra skill" seems so contradictory to me. So, BM hunters will STILL be more or less expected to bring an exotic, or miss out on their pets' extra skill? That seems to go against the very thing they say they want to do - give us more pet flexibility and more options. /sigh

If I want to raid as BM, I shouldn't have to use an exotic. I should be able to use my spider if I want to and still have it have the same benefits as an exotic. That's my choice. But it seems that giving only exotics an extra skill is just Blizz making the decision for me, and I don't like it.

The problem is that exotics seemed like a neat idea at first, but after having it implemented, I think it was a terrible idea. So now they have this lackluster 51-point talent, and they've forced themselves into a corner so to speak and don't seem to have any idea of how to remedy it. In all honesty it seems they don't know what to do with BM, and the more they try to "fix" it, the worse it gets.

[Acherontia]

That's just what I was thinking too, tbh.

How often do you use Aspect of the Beast?

Never?

I bet you anything that somewhere down the line--whether it was vanilla, tbc or wotlk start--a dev or three had the intention to make BM the same as the lore version. In lore, the Beast Masters are all big, tough, melee characters fighting alongside beasts. Talents to improve Aspect of the Beast along with a few extra melee skills, and perhaps BW making melee far more powerful, would have probably been the ticket. But, it was probably too much for PvP--a good melee char who can also kill at range? OP. O wait, then there's rets... But still All just my personal speculation, of course, but it's crossed my mind more than once that they really DON'T know what to do with BM. I'm not unhappy with it currently, but the whole limited-to-certain-pets or pets-limited-to-BM thing is irritating to me.

I think BM, if it had adhered to lore, would have been much what enhancement shaman are today, especially when they have 2 wolves out!

[Shandorei]

Okay I give up on trying to convince it isn't as bad as I seems when it comes to the hunter class overall.

To me it looks like the big bad thing here is that we really lack the opportunities to choose the real playstyle we really want to play, the beast masters want to have the power and burst of mm & sv hunters, while the sv&mm hunters want the beasts we get from our talent.

The simplest possible solution from my side would be to perhaps make us more hybrid like nearly all classes are, its just that... Its the last talent we have in our tree, and.. Yes, the arms warrior doesn't have two 2h's at once, and the same with fury, it doesn't have blade storm, but neither complain because they are completly free to choose between playstyle and not damage.

Would be nice to have that too, but as previously stated I think blizzard have big problems figuring out what to do with us. Remaking aspect of the beast, making it more useful would be nice.

Boosting the BM spec, damage wise in form of pet or hunter damage, and making exotics lose the category and making it tameable for everyone. making them lose eventual plusses or minuses would give us even more freedom.

Rares would still excist, so you can still be having a "special" pet with you. Every hunter would then get the choice to play their favourite spec without feeling less good than others, and pick the pet they like.


This is all speculations, but right now the exotics should stay BM-only until the BM spec gets closer to balanced.

Again I think hunters in bm would have to lose some utility for extra damage to fair them out pvp wise, because right now my hunter takes out enemies pretty easy without struggling to much.

In all of this I think blizzard does Whatever they can to come up with new and fun stuff to balance us out.



Edit: Okay I jumped alot, but the main point was that we need a choice of freedom.

All that remains is to wait patiently and hope they come up with something new!