Analysis of new Pet Abilities

[Ellaran]

I know everyone has their likes and dislikes about this, and I hope I don't make anyone upset, but here's my two cents.

Some of the complaints seem to be that people don't want to be anything more than the min/max DPSer who does nothing but sits back and pew-pews till the target is dead, and they want every single ability of them and their pet to be something that does damage. While originally this may have been the idea for pure DPS classes, Blizzard obviously wants us to be a little more proactive nowadays.

Some of the complaints are "people will bring a hunter only for this and that". Which is something that's been happening since WoW first launched and every class has experienced it, but it's not universal, and it doesn't really apply here. A hunter can now "plug a hole" in the raid buff, yes, but even if all the buffs are filled by other classes we also have a lot of nice debuffs to bring, through our beastly companions that can be in the thick of things. Got a group of caster mobs? Moths and Sporebats can screw with them nicely. Tallstriders and Foxes can really annoy melee mobs with slowing their attack speeds. Raptors and Serpents can make the tank's life easier. Runners can be taken care of by Wasps, Ravagers, Warp Stalkers, Chimaeras, and others with stuns and slowing. All of the classes who use bleeds will most likely love our Boars and Rhinos, and the casters will no doubt enjoy Wind Serpents and Dragonhawks. And if another hunter in the raid has that covered, then you can call out your favorite and enjoy.

Even soloing and questing, all of these things gives us a variety of utility for ourselves. Moths and Sporebats will be helpful when you're in a caster-heavy area, Raptors and Worms will make a world of difference with their armor reduction (and for Survival Hunters, Dragonhawks and Wind Serpents with their increased magic damage). And with 5 pets on your person, you can switch to something that's more effective for the area while you're running around.

Really, Blizzard has given Hunters a HUGE boost and advantage in Cataclysm with the pet redesign. We have more utility, more options, and more to bring with us. And it's no longer going to be "bring a Wolf or GTFO", we can bring whatever the 5-man or 10-man needs to fill a buff gap, or we can bring something that can provide enemy debuffs, or we can bring our favorite beastie (who might also be able to buff or debuff).

[Palladiamorsdeus]

It is entirely functional. It does what it's supposed to do, and pet's basic attacks have been buffed to compensate for a lack of a damaging ability, bringing most pets on par with each other within their respective groupings.

That being said, this flies entirely in the face of Blizzards "Bring the player, not the class." Now ONE class has access to nearly if not every major buff or debuff in the game. Don't have it on hand? Ten minutes you can go get it, and it'll probably level those three times on trash leading up to a boss.

Then you have the other side of that argument, that in 25 man runs it really won't matter. At that point you can bring whatever you want, because more then likely everything will be covered. In that case you'll ((Probably)) be brought for your actual skill as opposed to what ability your pet can bring.

I find this new system very, very boring. It's simple, easy to use, but does nothing for me personally. Also, if I am going to be picked for a raid, I want to be picked because I kick ass, and not because "Fluffy can bloodlust!"

[Kalliope]

That being said, this flies entirely in the face of Blizzards "Bring the player, not the class." Now ONE class has access to nearly if not every major buff or debuff in the game. Don't have it on hand? Ten minutes you can go get it, and it'll probably level those three times on trash leading up to a boss.

Not in a raid. Experience is terrible in those.

[Turgus]

Turgus wrote:
If this is the wrong place for me to have an educated and mature discussion about WoW Hunters, their Pets, and other mechanics, then so be it.

I will take my leave.

Saturo wrote:
So now you leave because someone disagrees?

Several posts before Palladia's were offensive to several people. Your viewpoint on this is the polar opposite, thus why you're probably a bit biased, and somewhat agree with them, putting you at a "middle line", where they're not offensive to you, even tough they clearly are to those who disagree.

Where did I say I was offended? Where did I say that I was going to leave because someone disagreed with me?
I stated I would leave it I was unable to have an educated and mature discussion.
A simple statement that well... states the obvious, I am not going to continue a conversation with people that are unable to have an educated and mature conversation.
Nothing more. Nothing less.
There was no statement of me taking offense of any sort.

This, if anything, is a perfect example of what I was talking about.

You got some sort of meaning out of what I wrote that was not there in the first place.
Please, reread what I wrote again.


Also, just because I have a certain opinion on something does not necessarily make me bias against anyone who has an opposing viewpoint.
As long as they can explain their concerns and reasoning in a logical and straight forward manner, I can definitely appreciate and reflect on their opinion on the matter.
Heck, they might even have a better understanding of the issue than I do; I have been wrong before, and I will be wrong again.
And although you wouldn't know it (because you and everyone on this message board doesn't actually know me) I actually try to be as neutral as I can, reading and understanding each side of the argument before jumping in to the conversation.

But, I just can not appreciate a ZOMG THEY NERFED US!! post.

What is it that they changed, how does this affect game-play, does it unbalance the game in some way, is it permanent or is it just temporary?

These are some of the questions I ponder whenever I read a post about a change in the game (or find out for myself,) especially if it happens in the Beta.
Beta is all about testing and playing around with things and seeing what works and what doesn't.

Numbers are not important in Beta, as many Developers and Veteran Beta Testers have stated over and over again.

You can always play with numbers, which they are obviously doing with Hunter abilities right now.
They have stated their intent, to make hunter damage less dependent on their ranged weapon (its DPS component,) and while they are nerfed it (hunter DPS) into the ground right now, they will fix it, and put it back where it is supposed to be.

There are some known issues (aka. bugs) in the Beta right now (pets only having 6k health or so after you dismount, and then they go to their real health 30k or so after a handful of seconds) and so far, this is the only issue I have heard about pet survivability. I have not seen or read any posts about pets going down to quick aside from this.

If there are other issue going on with pet survivability, please, educate me.


As for Hunter Pet damage, they (Blizzard) has stated that they want Hunter Pets, regardless of spec, to do about 30% of the hunters damage. So to this effect they will make changes.
Will some hunter pets do less than what is currently on live? Absolutely.
Is this a Nerf?

Maybe. Or Maybe Not.

Before one can make that assessment, they need to understand all of the various aspects of what is going on.
What is the Big Picture?

These pet changes are obviously not all that they have planned. (or maybe it isn't that obvious to some)
Not all of the pets in Live have new abilities, and some of the exotics only have one ability.
So this would be a perfect indicator (to me) that Blizzard is not done doing the Hunter Pet pass.
Even the amount of damage that claw and bite are doing is an indicator to me that they have a ways to go still.

Sure, some people will not like losing a cool ability on their favorite pet.
Is losing a couple pets various DPS abilities worth being able to have all hunter pets be equal?
To allow each pet to be able to bring something real and tangible to the table? (buffs/debuffs)
Which allows you to pick and choose which pet would be best based on the specific situation, and group/raid composition?

Or is it not worth it?

To me, the answer is obviously YES, it is worth it.

To others, the answer is obviously NO, it isn't.

I and others have put forth the advantages of these pet changes, such as the Pets giving me an extra 5% crit, or Bloodlust, or 4% more physical damage. (YES PLEASE!)

The fact that these buffs can help our DPS much more than the ability that the pet loses (just how much DPS does your character gain with an extra 5% crit or 4% more damage; is it equal to the DPS spirit strike does?)
The fact that it will make hunters even more desirable in groups and raids, thanks to the vast variety of buffs they can bring.
The fact that it will allow Blizzard to balance the numerous pet family and even let them add even more without worrying too much about balancing them all out. (Hydra's, man I hope they make Hydra's tamable)


But, aside from your pet survivability concern, which I tried to address (actually, the buff that the Silithid/Beetle adds to the group would increase its own survivability) I have not seen any real argument against these pet changes, aside from personal attachment to particular pet abilities. (spirit strike, bad attitude, etc.)
There was also the argument that some people DON'T want pets to bring a buff, because then the Hunter would actually have to pay attention to their pet and what it was doing. (Wait, What?)

To me, I find that so far one side of the argument is actually winning, from a logical point. And, it DOES just happen to be the side I support.

Show me how I am wrong with reason, please.
I don't know all of the aspect that the changes would influence.

Maybe I missed something.
Maybe you can change my mind.

[Ellaran]

It is entirely functional. It does what it's supposed to do, and pet's basic attacks have been buffed to compensate for a lack of a damaging ability, bringing most pets on par with each other within their respective groupings.

That being said, this flies entirely in the face of Blizzards "Bring the player, not the class." Now ONE class has access to nearly if not every major buff or debuff in the game. Don't have it on hand? Ten minutes you can go get it, and it'll probably level those three times on trash leading up to a boss.

Then you have the other side of that argument, that in 25 man runs it really won't matter. At that point you can bring whatever you want, because more then likely everything will be covered. In that case you'll ((Probably)) be brought for your actual skill as opposed to what ability your pet can bring.

I find this new system very, very boring. It's simple, easy to use, but does nothing for me personally. Also, if I am going to be picked for a raid, I want to be picked because I kick ass, and not because "Fluffy can bloodlust!"

You forget that the pet buffs are weaker than the class buffs, so we're not going to be sought out only for those over what pallies, druids, priests, etc can do, UNLESS it's a 5-man or 10-man and there may be a gap in what can be provided. And a hunter won't be chosen over a shaman for the sole fact that their Core Hound can Bloodlust.

And how is it boring? For six years all we did is stand back and shoot things while the pet dumped focus into damage moves. If that's exciting, then watching paint dry would be a national pastime. The "betraying the 'player, not class' promise" also feels a bit over-reactive, especially since Cataclysm raids and 5-mans are going to be a lot more skill-involved than just "gather up everything and AoE it to death". Hell, it's going to be harder to do that when you're just questing. The point of pet buffs/debuffs is that we can help out with those IF WE HAVE TO. Even if we don't have to use them, a lot of them will see good use, especially when leveling/questing/farming.

Of course, we could just tell Blizzard to do away with the talent trees and homogenize all classes and pets. Then it will truly come down to the skill of the player.

[PorrasouxRex]

Here are my two cents on this:

I do not want my pets to be like a Warlock Imp. Having one main damaging attack (Fireball) and having a buff (Blood Pact) or debuff. I know Cunning pets have Wolverine bite, but that isn't something that is "Sprinkled" on a family, just the tree, just like Rabid and CoDW. What I'm saying is it was fun to have something unique looking that only that type of beast could use. I don't think I could watch my pet blast Lightning or Frost from it's mouth at an enemy, and yet do no damage. It just doesn't make any sense. While I know Balancing things out means alot, you also have to consider Realism. "Yes this is world of warcraft of magic and blah blah blah" Yes. But when you have a T-rex biting you, is that supposed to not cause any sort of damage and give you a debuff? Or is that some sort of acid in it's jaws?

Another thing: What is a few hundred DPS differences on a pet matter because of it's family ability? The wolf and the Devilsaur were issues because it increased damage output of itself, and for the wolf's case: The Hunter for an extra CoDW every few seconds. Sure ranged abilities can be more useful than melee on some fights. But that happens to players alot too where a fight changed their damage output. Hunter pets are the kings/queens of the pet world because they take so much from the hunter. While the Warlock and Dks can take care of themselves without a pet really. You have so many beasts with different abilities out there, why not test them out with pets if causing 129-200 damage from family abilities were too OP for those whining PvPers out there, or super serious raiders?

[Rulah]

It's not a matter of the hunter's pet dealing damage with special abilities - it's about giving everyone more choices. As someone who's been pigeon-holed into pet choices for raiding since I started on this hunter, this is a really welcome change. I honestly couldn't care less the RP value of my pet's acid spray dealing damage or not, or whatever else the case may be. I want to use the pet I want (within reason, obviously) in a raid to do competitive DPS. Obviously if Blizzard spent all their time balancing pets and hunter specs we'd be there now without the huge change, but this is about a million times easier so whatever.

As long as I can use my Loque which has been sitting in my stable since I got it to level 80 I will be a happy camper in Cataclysm. Even if I can't it won't be the end of the world, at least I won't get stuck using a stupid wolf for yet another expansion. Maybe I'll go back to my old standard red cat (leveled as a blood elf, love that model) or maybe one of the ferocity pets I've yet to really use before.

Does the change hurt non-raiders? Sure, I guess. But then again odds are you were using your pet for reasons other than utility or min-max, and you'll probably continue to do so. I find no fault with this method of playing because you're paying the money so you gotta find a way to make yourself happy.

Now imagine that raiding hunters ALSO get to use whatever pet they want (though probably still ferocity) simply because they like how it looks or it's that rare skin or hard to tame mob. Entire hunter community is now happy except the few who can't get past "omg how does crab pinch but not do damage."

[Lisaara]

All I'm gonna say on the topic is something simple.

Don't QQ about this unless you've tried it. These abilities, as a beta tester, have proven to be much more useful than what we have currently. if you haven't tried it, you really don't have room to start QQing and saying how it's so unfair and how these new abilities suck.

[PorrasouxRex]

All I'm gonna say on the topic is something simple.

Don't QQ about this unless you've tried it. These abilities, as a beta tester, have proven to be much more useful than what we have currently. if you haven't tried it, you really don't have room to start QQing and saying how it's so unfair and how these new abilities suck.

I think you're missing the point of some of these posts and just skip over them, honestly. QQ doesn't involve having different opinions on the matter. What I'm saying thus far is that these abilities are promising, but should be more looked into and using them all as the "Buff stick" of the expansion, instead of removing the howl of the Wolves they just change how it worked, but at the same time also removed all the damage the other abilities and turned them all into a version of the wolf. Yet it buffs the raid as well, and at the same time takes care of the boss to give us more room. I don't see why it would make any difference if the abilities worked the same, and did the same damage without taking the damage away completely.

[PorrasouxRex]

All I'm gonna say on the topic is something simple.

Don't QQ about this unless you've tried it. These abilities, as a beta tester, have proven to be much more useful than what we have currently. if you haven't tried it, you really don't have room to start QQing and saying how it's so unfair and how these new abilities suck.

I think you're missing the point of some of these posts and just skip over them, honestly. QQ doesn't involve having different opinions on the matter. What I'm saying thus far is that these abilities are promising, but should be more looked into and using them all as the "Buff stick" of the expansion, instead of removing the howl of the Wolves they just change how it worked, but at the same time also removed all the damage the other abilities and turned them all into a version of the wolf. Yet it buffs the raid as well, and at the same time takes care of the boss to give us more room. I don't see why it would make any difference if the abilities worked the same, and did the same damage without taking the damage away completely.

When I mean the same, I mean keep the buffs and debuffs, but keep the damage the same on all of them. Look at Bats and Wasps now, Wasps are going to be used even less now and I assume they will eventually make Sting cost 80 focus as much as that damn Sonic Blast does. Wasps were popular because they delt with the annoying habit rogues love to annoy us with. BM and a Wasp destroyed a Rogue. But everything going is so simple and friendly anyway. We can only see how it'll turn out.

[Kalliope]

When I mean the same, I mean keep the buffs and debuffs, but keep the damage the same on all of them. Look at Bats and Wasps now, Wasps are going to be used even less now and I assume they will eventually make Sting cost 80 focus as much as that damn Sonic Blast does. Wasps were popular because they delt with the annoying habit rogues love to annoy us with. BM and a Wasp destroyed a Rogue. But everything going is so simple and friendly anyway. We can only see how it'll turn out.

Could suggest on the PTR to bring back the old sting, only with no damage component and instead make it an armor debuff.

[PorrasouxRex]

When I mean the same, I mean keep the buffs and debuffs, but keep the damage the same on all of them. Look at Bats and Wasps now, Wasps are going to be used even less now and I assume they will eventually make Sting cost 80 focus as much as that damn Sonic Blast does. Wasps were popular because they delt with the annoying habit rogues love to annoy us with. BM and a Wasp destroyed a Rogue. But everything going is so simple and friendly anyway. We can only see how it'll turn out.

Could suggest on the PTR to bring back the old sting, only with no damage component and instead make it an armor debuff.

Yes, I agree to that.

[Protego]

Blizzard did what they said they were gonna do. They're giving Hunters more pet choices in raids. In 25 "man" raids there's gonna be more pet choices.

[Turgus]

Sure some of the wasps have a nasty looking stinger on their model, but what if it was just like a big hypodermic needle?
Being stuck with a needle isn't the same as getting stabbed by a knife or a sword. (not that it doesn't hurt a little)
It really all comes down to the kind of venom the critter uses, if the sting burns or whatever.
You can think of the venom of the wasp sting being different than it used to be.

Maybe a fast acting paralytic poison or a full body anesthetic.
There are toxins out there that do this without you feeling a thing, all of a sudden you can't move a muscle.
Maybe it is even a combination of poisons and toxins, one that makes the victim not feel the needle, and another that completely paralyzes the victim.
I personally love imagining just "how" some of this stuff would actually work.

But all that aside, I completely understand why they took out the damage component, it makes balancing of the different pet abilities so much easier without having to check scaling on each and every ability.
It also allows them (Blizzard) to not give the ability a focus cost if they want to as well, since it is just a buff/debuff and not a damaging ability.
Sure this could be thought of as laziness on Blizzard behalf, but I do not think that at all.
I think of it as a simplification of pet abilities, and to me it is a reasonable price to pay for all of the cool new bells and whistles.
What is a few DPS difference on an ability, especially when Blizzard can easily make up the difference by buffing the pets other damaging abilities?

Personally, thats how I look at it.
But mileage does very.

Oh, and if you would like a armor debuff instead of a stun, that is definitely valid.
If you want to see it changed, I would post something on the PTR forums.
Oh, and good luck with that. Really good luck.

[Worba]

Probably the best explanation for removing the DPS component, from a purely conceptual perspective, would be to say that the DPS component of pet special abilities is reflected in the increase of their basic white dmg, which comprises every sort of physical attack they can make outside of their designated bite/smack/claw including the damaging element of lightning blasts, corrosive poison and etc.

Take a RL wasp or scorpion for example; they can sting repeatedly even when they run out of venom, at which point the attack becomes purely physical - but still dangerous, at least to something of even remotely comparable size...

[The Insect Man]

meh. A 2 second stun every minute or so is practically useless in any situation I can see myself getting into*, and that's even before you consider all the mobs that will be unstunnable. I like wasps and I'd like to see them get a better ability, preferably a buff or debuff in line with the others. BUT... that's because I like wasps. If tallstriders drew the short straw, I wouldn't give a damn, so it's a subjective thing. I'm just peeved because every arthropod pet in the game now seems to be intended for pvp, which is just wrong.

*monkeys appear to be getting a 4 second ranged stun for heaven's sake.

[GormanGhaste]

meh. I'm just peeved because every arthropod pet in the game now seems to be intended for pvp, which is just wrong.

I do think we will be able to choose pets based more on our personal preferences in 4.0 than we do now, but I must say I agree with Insect Man--I love my chitiny critters!

[Kalliope]

*monkeys appear to be getting a 4 second ranged stun for heaven's sake.

That's not a stun, that's blind. And it's the same thing as scatter shot/rogue blind.

PvP utility is really about the only place pets can show off their prowess at this point, since PvE got smoothed out in the name of fairness to all pet options.

[Turgus]

Worba wrote:
Probably the best explanation for removing the DPS component, from a purely conceptual perspective, would be to say that the DPS component of pet special abilities is reflected in the increase of their basic white dmg, which comprises every sort of physical attack they can make outside of their designated bite/smack/claw including the damaging element of lightning blasts, corrosive poison and etc.

Take a RL wasp or scorpion for example; they can sting repeatedly even when they run out of venom, at which point the attack becomes purely physical - but still dangerous, at least to something of even remotely comparable size...

Good Point! I was actually pondering something similar earlier today.
Maybe they should rename the bite/smack/claw attacks to something like: Rip/Tear/Slash/Smash etc. to show that a creature has many different ways that they can attack.

Of course, I would personally like all pets to have a wide range of abilities (bite, claw, pounce, grapple, sting, etc,) and buffs/debuffs (like the ones in that we are discussing,) but I know realistically it would take too much time to balance them all against each other and see all of the complex interactions when they are placed in different combinations on different animals.
(it would be -One Giant Headache- for Blizzard)

Personally I think a two-second stun without a focus cost would be great! (I hope it is without a focus cost, or at least a reasonable low one aka 20 focus or so)
As a BM hunter, this in combination with Intimidation would work wonders interrupting caster mobs, messing with players in PvP and giving you an extra couple of seconds for your trap cooldown to refresh, before that elite mob that you are supposed to keep chain trapped one-shots you.

[Kalliope]

Good Point! I was actually pondering something similar earlier today.
Maybe they should rename the bite/smack/claw attacks to something like: Rip/Tear/Slash/Smash etc. to show that a creature has many different ways that they can attack.

As I said in another thread, it's window dressing. It's the same functionality, regardless of what it's called. Does it REALLY make that much of a difference?