Blizzard's Cataclysm reasoning with Exotics.

[PorrasouxRex]

So, in Wotlk Exotics, even only being used by BMs, were not allowed to make the damage they deal anymore higher in DPS than those pets of the other trees, because that would be too OP and yet the Wolf and Devilsaur hit the high tiers. So now instead we are allowed to get two specials from exotics, yet none of them do any damage or increase the damage of the next attack as CATS and SPIRIT BEASTS had. While this is reasonably balanced. It just doesn't feel right to me, to be able to have two extra skills for a pure DPSin' pet yet his special skills for his family do no damage at all, and in reality you'd obviously get hurt from, not a debuff or stun. "My Wasp's HUGE stinger just stabbed you in the back, and you are only stunned by it!"

While I understand this is only the start of the pet balancing. I feel it should be looked at as a pure DPSing view. You are a hunter with a pet. Yet somehow your pets only deal so much from melee and claw/bite/smack, and they only give you buffs and debuffs to work with. Now when you look at it, doesn't it seem more like a nerf to BM than a buff to it? Sure, they buffed claw/bite/smack to a large amount (Which will probably get nerfed anyway) but now your pet only has two ways of dealing damage. While you look at the lesser pet-focused classes and see what extras the pet themselves got. You have to wonder where Blizzard is going with it all.

[Raydex-of-the-dawn]

It's not really a nerf*. In many cases, the attack's damage was subpar to their Basic Attack's damage - Wind Serpents were better off with Lightning turned off. The Exotics are also a lot better in some situations (read: Core Hounds have bloodlust).

*depending on the pet - SB's, crocks, bears, and warp stalkers are arguably nerfed.

[PorrasouxRex]

It's not really a nerf. In many cases, the attack's damage was subpar to their Basic Attack's damage - Wind Serpents were better off with Lightning turned off. The Exotics are also a lot better in some situations (read: Core Hounds have bloodlust).

Which is why Core Hounds will be loved by raids with no shamans. Feels like wolves all over again, but with favoring buffs to the raid.

[Gimlion]

With your reasoning, I can understand how you'd think it's a nerf, because your in the simple mentality that there are only three play/combat styles. I'm assuming you started playing during wrath (feel free to correct me). I say this b/c you act as if all that exists is Pure DPS, Tanking, and Healing. This is only so in Wrath. There is much more than that if you've played endgame anywhere else. In Vanilla and BC most raids required a lot more than just burning/tank-n-spanks. You had to kite, CC, people had specific buffs/debuffs that had to be used at the right times to ensure a boss effect would be negated. This is how Cata appears to be. So while you may see it as a 'nerf' it's nothing more than enhancing combat play to something more than just 'Tank-n-spank / AOE-fest'

[Lisaara]

It's not a nerf. Once more, I say don't QQ unless you've actually tried it. Take this from someone whos testing the beta and telling you these new abilities are actually better than you think it is.

[PorrasouxRex]

With your reasoning, I can understand how you'd think it's a nerf, because your in the simple mentality that there are only three play/combat styles. I'm assuming you started playing during wrath (feel free to correct me). I say this b/c you act as if all that exists is Pure DPS, Tanking, and Healing. This is only so in Wrath. There is much more than that if you've played endgame anywhere else. In Vanilla and BC most raids required a lot more than just burning/tank-n-spanks. You had to kite, CC, people had specific buffs/debuffs that had to be used at the right times to ensure a boss effect would be negated. This is how Cata appears to be. So while you may see it as a 'nerf' it's nothing more than
enhancing combat play to something more than just 'Tank-n-spank / AOE-fest'

I have played during End-game Vanilla. I am very much aware how wipes happened alot more with just a simple mistake. I dis-liked the "Training pet" system where you had to go out and tame all these beasts just to give your main one increased bonuses on abilities. I am NOT saying those buffs and de-buffs shouldn't be added in. I'm SAYING why did they remove the damage of those special abilities, and give them two family-related spells that really only focus on it, yet they deal no damage whatsoever? I know how to kite, and CC. But I didn't mind any other system of killing a mob, as long as I got the job done.

Now tell me this, how will these buffs and debuffs be any different than the arguements we've had over Wolves and Devilsaurs? Who will probably be, again one of the more used pets for their ability. Corehound's Bloodlust will be another mainly used Exotic, while the others will be least used depending on the fight unless Blizzard makes EVERY single fight worth which buff/debuff is used. If I say "Nerf" once everyone thinks that I'm doing one of the following things: QQing, and thinking that these ideas are not worth the expansion. NOT true. What I'm saying is hunter pets should be more than just buffers/de-buffers in the expansion. You should be able to use your special pet that you yourself tamed regardless of what it could use. But if someone is empty, who will they want to fill that spot? Your pet. Now a tool just like the wolf was, but now more so to the raid. "Lol wai u dun have a hound?" a version of the wolf-only huntards in Wotlk.

One more thing: How did I sound like I was only wanting hunter pets to be DPS-focused? I loved the ideas of buffs/debuffs. But in return we had the damage of some abilities removed and in-return buffing the simple abilities claw/bite/smack to make up for it. Oh, and on the soloing subject:Tenacity pets will only have mainly Thunderstomp for the damaging aggro AOE. Unless they buff that up a bit it'll be a little hard to keep them all on the pet unless they change the CD of Misdirect.

[PorrasouxRex]

It's not a nerf. Once more, I say don't QQ unless you've actually tried it. Take this from someone whos testing the beta and telling you these new abilities are actually better than you think it is.

I have a friend who is playing the beta, and from his resources and my desire to not spoil myself of how the epic expansion looks visually, I can say that I'm displeased, but not so much that I'm crying over it or it can't be looked over.

[Kalliope]

I am NOT saying those buffs and de-buffs shouldn't be added in. I'm SAYING why did they remove the damage of those special abilities, and give them two family-related spells that really only focus on it, yet they deal no damage whatsoever?

Back in vanilla, talents like Rabid didn't exist. The talent tree abilities are the source of a good amount of other pet damage. There's no "law of nature" that says that an animal HAS to have a family ability for damage in particular. Since the basic attacks got buffed, what does it matter if the special attacks don't do damage? This way was MUCH easier to balance because it's not dependent on how the pet's damage is put out there.

[PorrasouxRex]

I am NOT saying those buffs and de-buffs shouldn't be added in. I'm SAYING why did they remove the damage of those special abilities, and give them two family-related spells that really only focus on it, yet they deal no damage whatsoever?

Back in vanilla, talents like Rabid didn't exist. The talent tree abilities are the source of a good amount of other pet damage. There's no "law of nature" that says that an animal HAS to have a family ability for damage in particular. Since the basic attacks got buffed, what does it matter if the special attacks don't do damage? This way was MUCH easier to balance because it's not dependent on how the pet's damage is put out there.

I'm aware they didn't. Pets rarely were even useful for much of anything back in Vanilla other than really being the melee-eating tank they all are supposed to be, and just be that thing we threw in endgame. I just liked the idea of the pets being more different as far as damage and how they worked, rather than they being linked to each other by trees and focus dumps. But like I said, it isn't something that can't be worked around with.

[Kalliope]

I am NOT saying those buffs and de-buffs shouldn't be added in. I'm SAYING why did they remove the damage of those special abilities, and give them two family-related spells that really only focus on it, yet they deal no damage whatsoever?

Back in vanilla, talents like Rabid didn't exist. The talent tree abilities are the source of a good amount of other pet damage. There's no "law of nature" that says that an animal HAS to have a family ability for damage in particular. Since the basic attacks got buffed, what does it matter if the special attacks don't do damage? This way was MUCH easier to balance because it's not dependent on how the pet's damage is put out there.

I'm aware they didn't. Pets rarely were even useful for much of anything back in Vanilla other than really being the melee-eating tank they all are supposed to be, and just be that thing we threw in endgame. I just liked the idea of the pets being more different as far as damage and how they worked, rather than they being linked to each other by trees and focus dumps. But like I said, it isn't something that can't be worked around with.

And like I said, this way is easier for Blizzard. You asked why...

[Protego]

Exotics were not "decreased". Neither were Spirit Beasts ability a "decrease". I don't agree with the um... "complains" of "no more damage" at all. Good job Blizzard! Take it up with them.

[Lisaara]

Really, I don't see the point of complaining about it. Blizzard could've been total asses and said "No more abilities period! Whats in the tree is what you get!"

I ask the complainers....would you rather that instead where pets didnt get to be a little unique then?

Always remember before complaining.....it could be worse.

[Sarayana]

I said this in the other thread too - none of the pet family skills deal damage in Cata. Why should the spirit beasts'? That would grossly imbalance things and you'd be a lousy hunter to run around as BM without a SB. The fact is, damage is rolled into baseline and talent trees. Beyond that, we get utility.

I agree 100% with Gimlion, I think a little creative thinking will make us as useful as we were in TBC. God, I was so damn proud of my kiting and chain trapping back then. Imagine if we had the Cata family skills then!

[Bellatryx]

I said this in the other thread too - none of the pet family skills deal damage in Cata. Why should the spirit beasts'? That would grossly imbalance things and you'd be a lousy hunter to run around as BM without a SB. The fact is, damage is rolled into baseline and talent trees. Beyond that, we get utility.

I agree 100% with Gimlion, I think a little creative thinking will make us as useful as we were in TBC. God, I was so damn proud of my kiting and chain trapping back then. Imagine if we had the Cata family skills then!

I agree! I can't wait to see the competent hunters as a viable raid choice again. I stopped playing mine when Wrath came out because my hunter never got to raid, it was so cruddy. I leveled up a Druid AND a Paladin and played as a healer so I could at least see some of the end game content.

I hopped on the PTR earlier and started leveling a cute little troll hunter and I fell in love.. I'm just a little wary because I don't want to play until I can experience the new leveling system on live.

[Sarayana]

I know what you mean... I made a baby shammy on the ptr to test out ele at the low levels, but I doubt she'll go far as I intend to reroll my shammy on Nesingwary once we have the new starting zone and yummyness.

And yes, I do think hunters will once again be harder to play well, and that excites me to no end. :3

[Opreich]

I said this in the other thread too - none of the pet family skills deal damage in Cata. Why should the spirit beasts'? That would grossly imbalance things and you'd be a lousy hunter to run around as BM without a SB. The fact is, damage is rolled into baseline and talent trees. Beyond that, we get utility.

I agree 100% with Gimlion, I think a little creative thinking will make us as useful as we were in TBC. God, I was so damn proud of my kiting and chain trapping back then. Imagine if we had the Cata family skills then!

And is why I will be resuming my WoW subscription in Cata. I stopped just after the Sunwell patch and hence I never did become friendly with the AoE grind fest of Wrath.

So Cata will really just feel like coming back from a really long holiday.

[Worba]

So, in Wotlk Exotics, even only being used by BMs, were not allowed to make the damage they deal anymore higher in DPS than those pets of the other trees, because that would be too OP and yet the Wolf and Devilsaur hit the high tiers. So now instead we are allowed to get two specials from exotics, yet none of them do any damage or increase the damage of the next attack as CATS and SPIRIT BEASTS had. While this is reasonably balanced. It just doesn't feel right to me, to be able to have two extra skills for a pure DPSin' pet yet his special skills for his family do no damage at all, and in reality you'd obviously get hurt from, not a debuff or stun. "My Wasp's HUGE stinger just stabbed you in the back, and you are only stunned by it!"

While I understand this is only the start of the pet balancing. I feel it should be looked at as a pure DPSing view. You are a hunter with a pet. Yet somehow your pets only deal so much from melee and claw/bite/smack, and they only give you buffs and debuffs to work with. Now when you look at it, doesn't it seem more like a nerf to BM than a buff to it? Sure, they buffed claw/bite/smack to a large amount (Which will probably get nerfed anyway) but now your pet only has two ways of dealing damage. While you look at the lesser pet-focused classes and see what extras the pet themselves got. You have to wonder where Blizzard is going with it all.

While I agree that the new (non damaging) pet spells often look rather silly on virtual paper without a damage component, I feel it is nonetheless necessary to remove the DPS element across the board - including from exotics.

The dev team walks a fine line on the subject of exotics - how do they make them "special" without simultaneously also making them the new "wolf" of hunter pets, e.g. BM hunters w/o exotic getting scorned on/barred from raids as hunters without wolves sometimes are now.

While the ability to tame exotics remains unique to BM spec, obviously a BM hunter should be able to use any pet he likes and do just as well as anything else in the same group (tenacity/ferocity/cunning), without having to worry about enduring a disadvantage by not taking an exotic.

The only logical conclusion is to avoid giving exotics anything that sites like elitistjerks can latch onto and show gives them a built-in advantage... to me at least, the attraction of exotic pets is more like wanting Rivendare Charger or the TLPD over a "normal" mount - both will get you there just as quickly, but the TLPD is just ... cooler.

[Sasrei]

I think what the OP is saying that instead of having wolves as a must have pet for raids. Now if your raid is misisng a buff or debuff you'll have to use the pet that will supply it instead of using the pet you love. If you have a more even raid it would make it so much more easier but not every raid has that. So instead our pets who we love will not be a stat stick for us (as some hunters veiw there wolves) but instead a stat stick for the raid. And a hardcore raiding I am going to be finding myself having to tame a wide variety of pets I may not even like because of how it may help the raid. All the hunters in my guild are either never on, or will be changing to a different class come cata. So my stable slots are going to get full pretty fast.. and even with the level increase to pets... level 25 pets in time for a raid is.. scary lol

I am still excited about the possibilities its just.. I am also worried that I may now instead of using a pet I love and wanna use. Ill have to switch it out for something else.. and as a raider and guildee I understand this and am now ok with it.

[Sarayana]

I know what you're saying Sasrei, but... I kinda like being able to bring that utility. If our raid is missing a shammy, it'll be awesome to be able to pull our a corehound and say "no problem! " If we're short on people that can silence/sunder/slow/whatever the hell you can think of that I can provide, I guarantee that I'll be the first to pipe up and offer to pull out the appropriate pet. It makes me happy to be able to provide more utility. Hunters are about massive ranged dps, for sure, but our class is capable of SO MUCH MORE.

I know there are hunters that won't like feeling "forced" to switch pets. I really understand that, and the attachment to a single pet or a few pets. All I can say is, if you're in a progression raiding guild and want to maximize your character, you'll have to compromise. If you want to be able to bring the pet you want to use and not worry about switching, then you'll need to consider whether you really want to do progression raiding. For a hunter, maximizing your pet is as important as knowing your shot priority, getting the right gear, and so on. There has always been must-have pets for raiding. The difference is that now it won't be "wolf or gtfo", it'll be fight-specific.

Edit: I realise that we pretty much agree, so I apologise if I sound like I misrepresented your point... I kinda just started writing and the ball started rolling...

[Palladiamorsdeus]

Really, I don't see the point of complaining about it. Blizzard could've been total asses and said "No more abilities period! Whats in the tree is what you get!"

I ask the complainers....would you rather that instead where pets didnt get to be a little unique then?

Always remember before complaining.....it could be worse.

I really have to point out how wrong this is. Pet abilities are not unique right now. At all. They are shared buffs, debuffs, and in one special case a heal from other classes. Our pet's just got LESS unique, not more so.

There was a better answer then this. Giving each family one damage dealing ability, all of which did roughly the same amount of damage, and one buff or debuff. Buff the damage from the special and the basic, but not to the point of specials right now, and there you go. Each family has a unique way of dealing damage, a unique buff/debuff, and everyone goes home happy.

Sorry I can't remember who said it, but whoever said that "This was easier for Blizzard." had it spot on.