Seige of Orgrimmar and Varian Wrynn's Development

[cowmuflage]

It's bad game story telling if major plot points in a character's lore happens outside of the game as it alienates alot of the players. Major plot points should allways been in game not in a novel or comic as most players don't read them.

[Talaridan]

It's bad game story telling if major plot points in a character's lore happens outside of the game as it alienates alot of the players. Major plot points should allways been in game not in a novel or comic as most players don't read them.

I don't disagree, but I can't really think of any important/major things that have happened to either side directly in game myself. Not Horde or Alliance.

The only "big things" were group efforts, such as killing Deathwing.

[cowmuflage]

It's bad game story telling if major plot points in a character's lore happens outside of the game as it alienates alot of the players. Major plot points should allways been in game not in a novel or comic as most players don't read them.

I don't disagree, but I can't really think of any important/major things that have happened to either side directly in game myself. Not Horde or Alliance.

The only "big things" were group efforts, such as killing Deathwing.

I did not know who the hell Varian was and why he was king intill someone told me it happend in a comic He just showed up one patch XD

[Talaridan]

It's bad game story telling if major plot points in a character's lore happens outside of the game as it alienates alot of the players. Major plot points should allways been in game not in a novel or comic as most players don't read them.

I don't disagree, but I can't really think of any important/major things that have happened to either side directly in game myself. Not Horde or Alliance.

The only "big things" were group efforts, such as killing Deathwing.

I did not know who the hell Varian was and why he was king intill someone told me it happend in a comic He just showed up one patch XD

Pretty much! I play Horde! But to that effect, hell, I didn't know a lot of things until they just "showed up" Horde side too. I haven't played WC1-WC3 so a lot of stuff was new for me before I went lore hunting.

[Pokerfase]

Garrosh is gonna be deposed? ...Place your bets for new Warchief, everyone!

Maybe Saurfang will take over and lead the Horde to prosperity with his combination of patient wisdom and sheer awesomeness. Perhaps Vol'jin might have to take over if there are no other viable candidates for such a demanding leadership position.

For lulz, the new Warchief could be... Lor'themar (whoever that is)! You know... that one guy that did... stuff. Or maybe Gamon will be buffed to a raid boss at the end of Pandaria and just walk into Grommash Hold and claim his seat on the throne and people will just shrug and allow it because of how awesome he is. Or, for the best option of all... Basic Campfire will become Warchief.

[Talaridan]

Garrosh is gonna be deposed? ...Place your bets for new Warchief, everyone!

Maybe Saurfang will take over and lead the Horde to prosperity with his combination of patient wisdom and sheer awesomeness. Perhaps Vol'jin might have to take over if there are no other viable candidates for such a demanding leadership position.

For lulz, the new Warchief could be... Lor'themar (whoever that is)! You know... that one guy that did... stuff. Or maybe Gamon will be buffed to a raid boss at the end of Pandaria and just walk into Grommash Hold and claim his seat on the throne and people will just shrug and allow it because of how awesome he is. Or, for the best option of all... Basic Campfire will become Warchief.

I would have preferred Saurfang or Vol'jin.

However, it is going to be Thrall apparently: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PaM1T88 ... ure=colike

[GormanGhaste]

Vol'jin for Warchief!

[baldcore]

Undercity is NOT a megafortress. Undercity used to belong to the Alliance(it's Lordaeron, afterall). Also the dealio with that was it was people already INSIDE the dang city that overran it. It was pretty well stated on how that all happened. Orgrimmar, also, is not a megafortress with super duper weapons. This isn't Mass Effect where they have gunships ready to blow the crap out of anything that comes near their gates.

Alliance has hardly gotten any story. Cataclysm was extremely Horde focused, especially around Garrosh. Also, the HORDE themselves is mounting against Garrosh. It's not the Alliance alone doing so. This seems to be the biggest detail I've noticed thats being missed.

Last I checked it was a home to a bio weapons lab, tons of abominations, and dozens of undead ready to defend in a place with only 2 entrances both of which are very well guarded. I will admit that Undercity doesnt have the best defense but you are deadly wrong about orgrimmar.

As for orgrimmar, you are showing a humongous lack of knowledge. At the front of orgrimmar are 3 defenses: a long range massive arrow launchers, heavy amounts of ground troops outside the city itself, and 2 portculis which inhibit the ability to enter with siege weaponry as well as force any attackers attempting to enter through that direction to face assaults from within the gate house itself. There is also the matter of that massive wall that would takes some massive explosives. Now lets talk about what is in the goblin district, a $%^&ing nuke! If you did the storyline in stonetalon you would recognize the bomber balloon. Now if that thing gets just the right drop at the right spot it can turn any invading army into a smoking crater. Now lets talk about the back end by azshara. Can you say tributchet? 5 of them await launch so any attempt to enter from azshara would be tricky. Not to mention you have the bilgewater cannon which is probably capable of taking out naval boats with ease so even if you get onto azshara you got some pretty heavy defense waiting at the gate as well as some more of those giant arrow launchers. The only weakpoint is at the river entrance but if you cant get unto the upper level and the connecting passage to the drag is blown than you gotta go through the goblin defenses. Now if garrosh saw anyone entering through that way he may just as easily have the bomb dropped right there. The heavy rock walls would shield most of org from the blast as well as turning that area into a smoking crater. Now you are probably thinking about air strikes. Orgrimmar has 3 flying divisions making routine sweeps so any air attack may be in for a rough time plus there is more launchers on the roof. The only other way would be to port in but I question if anyone could hold a portal for long before the defenders would attempt to disrupt it. Orgrimmar is not a mega fortress. Ha! Thats a laugh. The only reason that every defense and offense is not online is because blizzard wanted to give the allies a chance to attack but to turn orgrimmar into another instance suggests that any attempts to take over this place is gonna be one massive cluster$%&* of a battle if all those offenses and defenses are put into use.\

Edit: Seems I was wrong on the arrows. Instead there is a large amount of tribuchets instead. That enough meteors to make you think it was raining meteors.

[Worba]

EDIT FOR THE "Alliance has had no story": Bullhooey! The entire comic book series is 99% about them. All of their major characters have undergone changes. They have had a toooon of story. Which is fine. I think both sides should get lots of good story and attention. But I do not agree in the least that Horde has gotten "so much focus" and the Alliance has not.

That's one of the major problem, way too many things are happening outside the game. Not everyone knows of the novels nor the comic books, or are willing to buy them. While there was lots of alliance stuff going on in the comics, very little happened in game, if any at all, and that's why a lot of players are complaining. Personally I do not apreciate at all having to go to wowwiki and other sites to figure out wtf happened with the alliance story while I can just see it all happen in game when I play my horde toons.

A lot of it is in game and in quests too, so I don't buy that either. If anyone wants to know about Cairne, they have to read it outside of the game for the most part, but no one mentions that. Honestly, plenty of information is IN game. People just have to read their darn quests!

I don't see a ton happening to the Horde in game either in that respect. Most of the details you have to go hunting outside sources to locate.

Honestly, speaking more broadly, it's probably no longer realistic to draw a sharp line between in-game / out-of-game resources. By now I suspect the % of players who benefit from outside resources directly by going to sites like wowhead, or indirectly by getting info from those who have, is probably like 66%+.

Take quests for example. In the past I tried to just figure it out in-game and not to look stuff up online... but there were just too many quests with garbled, incomplete or just plain wrong descriptions of where to go and what to do... and then ofc there's all the theorycrafting that goes into raids or even just pug bosses sometimes. Etc etc.

So I think there's already a long tradition of reaching outside of wow for info. Technically it shouldn't be that way - good game design should render that at least largely needless, but for practical purposes I think that's just how it is, and it's had its impact on lore as much as anything else.

I *would* like to see more stuff like battle for undercity, that makes the central lore more well-known, and there is room for improvement there, but there's still SO much lore that there's probably always going to be some "fringe stuff" that kinda falls through the cracks between the lore aficionados and the casuals.

[Boven]

Yeesh. Why must nearly every expansion, patch, or announcement degenerate into a faction favoritism argument?

Anyway, more on topic. I hadn't seen the video linked earlier in this thread before. It seems odd that Thrall would come back to lead the Horde again. I thought Blizz had said that, while he was still going to be around, he wasn't going to be Warchief again. Now, not having seen that video, here's what I'd posted in the thread on WoW Insider:

The events in Stonetalon hinted that maybe Garrosh was cooling down and learning, but then we see him back to his usual self on the zep trip to the Twilight Highlands. (At least the Horde does.) I, for one, will be glad to see him ousted.

As for a replacement, I don't think the Horde, in general, would accept Sylvanas. Besides, with the Lich King out of the way, she's got little use for the rest of the Horde nowadays.

Vol'Jin would probably do well, but after what he's put up with from Garrosh, I don't know that he's feeling too chummy with the rest of the Horde either. Still, he's got wisdom and experience.

Lor'themar would be in interesting choice, but even back in Burning Crusade, most people don't even know who he is. Having him take over from out of obscurity probably wouldn't work.

Gallywix is out of the question, I think. He hasn't even put in an appearance in the expansion aside from having his face put on the pleasure palace he built and never moved into.

Baine was being trained by his father to be a leader and he certainly has diplomatic experience. The fact that he and Anduin are on friendly terms would bode well for future relations with the Alliance. I somehow doubt, though, that Baine would have aspirations to be Warchief. Cairne didn't want to be. He only challenged Garrosh because he felt he had to to protect the Horde.

Really, I think it'd have to be an Orc leading the Horde, especially since there'd need to be a new Orc racial leader anyway. The two names that spring to my mind are Saurfang and Zaela. I doubt Saurfang would want the job. Zaela could be interesting, though.

[Silivren]

Garrosh is gonna be deposed? ...Place your bets for new Warchief, everyone!

Maybe Saurfang will take over and lead the Horde to prosperity with his combination of patient wisdom and sheer awesomeness. Perhaps Vol'jin might have to take over if there are no other viable candidates for such a demanding leadership position.

For lulz, the new Warchief could be... Lor'themar (whoever that is)! You know... that one guy that did... stuff. Or maybe Gamon will be buffed to a raid boss at the end of Pandaria and just walk into Grommash Hold and claim his seat on the throne and people will just shrug and allow it because of how awesome he is. Or, for the best option of all... Basic Campfire will become Warchief.

I would have preferred Saurfang or Vol'jin.

However, it is going to be Thrall apparently: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PaM1T88 ... ure=colike

...My favorite part of that entire video is the end - "OH GOD WHERE ARE HER CLOTHES!!!?" (in reference to female pandaren fan art that will soon arise I'm sure.)

[Talaridan]

Yeesh. Why must nearly every expansion, patch, or announcement degenerate into a faction favoritism argument?

I don't disagree actually. That was kind of my point. I don't see either side getting "more" so the argument "Well, the Alliance needs more attention" doesn't make sense to me.

[Lisaara]

Undercity is NOT a megafortress. Undercity used to belong to the Alliance(it's Lordaeron, afterall). Also the dealio with that was it was people already INSIDE the dang city that overran it. It was pretty well stated on how that all happened. Orgrimmar, also, is not a megafortress with super duper weapons. This isn't Mass Effect where they have gunships ready to blow the crap out of anything that comes near their gates.

Alliance has hardly gotten any story. Cataclysm was extremely Horde focused, especially around Garrosh. Also, the HORDE themselves is mounting against Garrosh. It's not the Alliance alone doing so. This seems to be the biggest detail I've noticed thats being missed.

Last I checked it was a home to a bio weapons lab, tons of abominations, and dozens of undead ready to defend in a place with only 2 entrances both of which are very well guarded. I will admit that Undercity doesnt have the best defense but you are deadly wrong about orgrimmar.

As for orgrimmar, you are showing a humongous lack of knowledge. At the front of orgrimmar are 3 defenses: a long range massive arrow launchers, heavy amounts of ground troops outside the city itself, and 2 portculis which inhibit the ability to enter with siege weaponry as well as force any attackers attempting to enter through that direction to face assaults from within the gate house itself. There is also the matter of that massive wall that would takes some massive explosives. Now lets talk about what is in the goblin district, a $%^&ing nuke! If you did the storyline in stonetalon you would recognize the bomber balloon. Now if that thing gets just the right drop at the right spot it can turn any invading army into a smoking crater. Now lets talk about the back end by azshara. Can you say tributchet? 5 of them await launch so any attempt to enter from azshara would be tricky. Not to mention you have the bilgewater cannon which is probably capable of taking out naval boats with ease so even if you get onto azshara you got some pretty heavy defense waiting at the gate as well as some more of those giant arrow launchers. The only weakpoint is at the river entrance but if you cant get unto the upper level and the connecting passage to the drag is blown than you gotta go through the goblin defenses. Now if garrosh saw anyone entering through that way he may just as easily have the bomb dropped right there. The heavy rock walls would shield most of org from the blast as well as turning that area into a smoking crater. Now you are probably thinking about air strikes. Orgrimmar has 3 flying divisions making routine sweeps so any air attack may be in for a rough time plus there is more launchers on the roof. The only other way would be to port in but I question if anyone could hold a portal for long before the defenders would attempt to disrupt it. Orgrimmar is not a mega fortress. Ha! Thats a laugh. The only reason that every defense and offense is not online is because blizzard wanted to give the allies a chance to attack but to turn orgrimmar into another instance suggests that any attempts to take over this place is gonna be one massive cluster$%&* of a battle if all those offenses and defenses are put into use.\

Edit: Seems I was wrong on the arrows. Instead there is a large amount of tribuchets instead. That enough meteors to make you think it was raining meteors.

You once again missed the points entirely.

1. Undercity.....the bio weapons are kept in ONE section, and they are few there. The bio weapons are actually in other places being used(Gilneas anyone) and half the time are made on the fly. They don't exactly keep a storage shed out back for them. Aboms? No. They don't. The aboms are gone, replaced with the Kor'kon Guard. I've also walked in and out of Undercity, BOTH entrances, without much trouble....by myself.

2. Orgrimmar has a better defense than Undercity, HOWEVER...the point you are seriously missing is The Horde turned against Garrosh. Meaning if the Alliance is coming to help them kick Garrosh out, the weapons aren't going to be fired. Plain and simple, no matter how you slice it.

[Wain]

I think people may be treating in-game scenarios a bit too seriously.

WoW is FULL of contrivances to enable story flow and gameplay that do not stand up to close scrutiny. It's not a fully self-consistent world. It's a game first, that is consistent for as much as it doesn't get in the way of game play. Undercity has an enormous gaping drain entrance almost entirely unguarded that you could march an entire army though. Would any city at war actually do that in the real world? Silvermoon installed a teleporter to their city in an entirely unguarded ruined room of Lordaeron with a ceiling open to the sky. Not only that, the teleporter comes out in a room right behind the regent's back. Do you think he might feel a little nervous? Not to mention the stream of undead tourists and merchants who'd treat the throne room as a thoroughfare.

When viewed closely a lot of the game world makes little sense thematically, but does make game play easier. If they want Orgrimmar to be assailable they'll just add a new contrivance to allow for it to happen. It'll be no different to any one of a thousand other situations and not worth agonizing over.

[Lisaara]

I think people may be treating in-game scenarios a bit too seriously.

WoW is FULL of contrivances to enable story flow and gameplay that do not stand up to close scrutiny. It's not a fully self-consistent world. It's a game first, that is consistent for as much as it doesn't get in the way of game play. Undercity has an enormous gaping drain entrance almost entirely unguarded that you could march an entire army though. Would any city at war actually do that in the real world? Silvermoon installed a teleporter to their city in an entirely unguarded ruined room of Lordaeron with a ceiling open to the sky. Not only that, the teleporter comes out in a room right behind the regent's back. Do you think he might feel a little nervous? Not to mention the stream of undead tourists and merchants who'd treat the throne room as a thoroughfare.

When viewed closely a lot of the game world makes little sense thematically, but does make game play easier. If they want Orgrimmar to be assailable they'll just add a new contrivance to allow for it to happen. It'll be no different to any one of a thousand other situations and not worth agonizing over.

Very well said, Wain.

[Rubywashere]

I was just leveling a troll alt of mine
I couldn't help but notice the Vol'jin/ Garrosh cutscene
Vol'jin said he was going to kill Garrosh someday when his people dont trust him as much
I never read the full thread but I heard bits that garrosh is going to die.
I cant help but wonder if Vol'jin is going to finish him

[Lisaara]

I was just leveling a troll alt of mine
I couldn't help but notice the Vol'jin/ Garrosh cutscene
Vol'jin said he was going to kill Garrosh someday when his people dont trust him as much
I never read the full thread but I heard bits that garrosh is going to die.
I cant help but wonder if Vol'jin is going to finish him

I'm certain he'll get the final blow and be like "Told you so, mon."

[Rubywashere]

XD
that would be pretty awesome, not that I hate garrosh as much but I love vol'jin

[Lisaara]

XD
that would be pretty awesome, not that I hate garrosh as much but I love vol'jin

Vol'jin is awesome. <3