For the...Horde?

[Lazuly]

That is unpleasant to hear. Garrosh, with the superior race thing..very 3rd Reich. Ugh.
What about the pockets of Horde-Alliance cooperation, say in Outlands, Northrend, Moonglade?

I don't think all the Horde will agree with Garrosh's new direction. I know at least from the Tauren's perspective, they want only peace and respect for their lands, they aren't out to 'get' anyone else. I've heard a rumor that Garrosh will end up attacking Cairne over this perceived 'weakness'. That alone will make many Tauren resent him. The Grimtotem Clan may get some power out of that, however, since they are very xenophobic and will probably like Garrosh's attitude. =P

Like I said, I think the Horde will end up having deep splits dividing the 'Pro' and 'Anti' Garrosh factions. For one thing, the Tauren share several religious aspects with the Night Elves and many druids of the two races are allies. They won't agree with Garrosh at all, especially since he supports the continued deforestation of Ashenvale. The Trolls and BE will probably be very insulted to be called 'weak'. I'm not sure how the Forsaken will react -- on the one hand, I can understand there being a loss of trust in them after the Wrathgate incident, but I'm sure many who have been loyal will feel it's unfair that they are being painted with the same brush. I think Garrosh will end up causing his own downfall by his actions. He is short-sighted and a bully, I don't think he has the wisdom to be a good leader at all.

I think this new inter-Horde conflict will lead to some interesting plot developments and drama, but hopefully it will be eventually resolved in a way that will make the Horde more unified and honorable. Maybe we'll end up electing a Tauren to be Warchief. =P

[Noor]

I don't even like the whole Thrall dying and Garrosh taking over... I hope they open up for a third, neutral faction. I have nothing good to say about Garrosh and do not want to be on his side in the conflict. Nor the Alliance. Because well, they are the Alliance.

[Chrizesu]

I don't even like the whole Thrall dying and Garrosh taking over... I hope they open up for a third, neutral faction. I have nothing good to say about Garrosh and do not want to be on his side in the conflict. Nor the Alliance. Because well, they are the Alliance.

Thrall doesn't die, he becomes a guardian of someplace. >_>

[Ryai]

I don't even like the whole Thrall dying and Garrosh taking over... I hope they open up for a third, neutral faction. I have nothing good to say about Garrosh and do not want to be on his side in the conflict. Nor the Alliance. Because well, they are the Alliance.

Thrall doesn't die, he becomes a guardian of someplace. >_>

It's Cairne that dies

[Lazuly]

Thrall doesn't die, he becomes a guardian of someplace. >_>

Yeah, basically Garrosh deposes him. Thrall feels like a failure so he goes to wander in the wilderness or something.
Garrosh already challenged Thrall's leadership once already, but the Scourge Invasion event interrupted their duel. The second time, there won't be any distractions and Thrall will lose the fight.

Goes to show the flaw in a system that allows for fighting to decide who will lead an entire civilization. Just because someone is toughest doesn't mean they know how to lead.

[Nevar]

Actually if you read the comics which is what I believe blizzard is steering towards he becomes the new guardian of Tirisfall...dosent make much sense too me as Me'dan all ready is but theres reasoning behind it such as needing more nature magic in the guardianship er something. Thrall does need to toughen up though I mean I really like him but he lets Garrosh get out of hand and start uneeded stuff -_- then again I HATE Garrosh with a passion.

[Ryai]

Thrall doesn't die, he becomes a guardian of someplace. >_>

Yeah, basically Garrosh deposes him. Thrall feels like a failure so he goes to wander in the wilderness or something.
Garrosh already challenged Thrall's leadership once already, but the Scourge Invasion event interrupted their duel. The second time, there won't be any distractions and Thrall will lose the fight.

Goes to show the flaw in a system that allows for fighting to decide who will lead an entire civilization. Just because someone is toughest doesn't mean they know how to lead.

Actually I thought Thrall was captured and there was nothing else to it- and with his capture, and Saurfang being AFK and then Thrall becoming the guardian Garrosh is appointed. Or he gets appointed before Thrall is called for guardian/captured. If Thrall was disposed of I don't think there would be orcs looking for Thrall on the goby islands.

[Lazuly]

Thrall does need to toughen up though I mean I really like him but he lets Garrosh get out of hand and start uneeded stuff -_- then again I HATE Garrosh with a passion.

I think Thrall is torn between the traditional Orc warlike values, and the more 'civilized' way of thinking he learned from humans. He doesn't want to say the old Orc ways are 'wrong', but then that allows extremists like Garrosh to use 'tradition' and 'honor in war' to push for more aggression-oriented policies. Keep in mind, most of the current Horde Orcs were only relatively recently freed from the Burning Legion's curse and know very little besides warfare (I don't think there has yet been a generation of Orcs who were born and raised in peace). In a changing world, it probably seems better to many Orcs to fall back on those old war ways to 'defend their way of life' rather than appear 'weak' by wanting to TALK about things and make compromises with the Alliance.

Actually I thought Thrall was captured

Oh, I didn't know the whole story for sure. I thought it would be a continuation of the duel they started before WoTLK came out. I've tried to avoid reading too many story details besides the spoilers that were given at Blizzcon.

[Nevar]

You know lets just agree we hate Garrosh and lets kill him...cause..I see very angry hordies come cataclysm if Garrosh does what its rumored and if he goes through with his plans - peace will be shattered and etc etc..Personally I'd pay to see Vol'jin lay the smack down on him But Thrall imo (now dont go smackin here) is the way he is BECAUSE he was born in those camps..he grew up around humans and adopted their ways becoming civilized which is a good thing it makes him a leader with a good heart and a even temper. Think if Thrall wasnt born there..he probably would have turned out different and been like Garrosh or perhaps been towards a more old way of thinking which would have made ANY hope of peace non-existant.

[Lazuly]

You know lets just agree we hate Garrosh and lets kill him...cause..I see very angry hordies come cataclysm if Garrosh does what its rumored and if he goes through with his plans - peace will be shattered and etc etc..Personally I'd pay to see Vol'jin lay the smack down on him But Thrall imo (now dont go smackin here) is the way he is BECAUSE he was born in those camps..he grew up around humans and adopted their ways becoming civilized which is a good thing it makes him a elader with a good heart and a even temper. Think if Thrall wasnt born there..he probably would have turned out different and been like Garrosh or perhaps been towards a more old way of thinking which would have made ANY hope of peace non-existant.

Well, that opinion might offend some Orcs, but from a Tauren perspective, I didn't see very many redeeming characteristics in the old Orc ways (at least while they were serving the Burning Legion). It was all mindless combat and destruction, and a total disrespect for the world and even the Dragons. Tauren almost suffered from the opposite problem -- they kept losing fights with the Centaur to the point where they had to become nomadic to avoid being completely killed off. We wouldn't have Mulgore at all if it wasn't for the Thrall's help. Being with the Orcs has probably made the Tauren as a whole better warriors, but in return I think the Orcs could learn a thing or two from the Tauren as well.

But if I see any Alliance groups riding into Orgrimmar to take out Garrosh, even though I can't help them kill him I'll toss 'em a /cheer or two.

[Nevar]

^ New favorite tauren right there!

[Ryno]

With all this dwarf loving talk, I went off and created a dwarf hunter...

NOOO, DO NOT TEMPT ME!!

Thrall guarding Tirisfal... from... people that haven't attacked it yet... you'd think there'd be more presence of the peoples trying to take it if it was important... maybe huuuuge warships off the coast, with portals behind it where you see demons streaming in... or something...

[Kayb]

well nothing is 100% certain as yet, but the rumor i heard was that garrosh can't convince the tauren to be all 'grr argh' like he wants them to be, and they don't agree with going nuts against the alliance just cause. so in his mind he believes cairne to be a traitor to the horde, and has him killed with the intent of blaming the kill on the alliance, which pisses off all the tauren, making them go 'grr argh' and gear up to smack down the alliance

which naturally in turns makes the arrogant alliance go "see, told you they're evil" and the whole war thing flares up good and proper this time.

certainly i understand that we won't ever see a true peace, this is afterall world of warcraft, not peacecraft. but the whole garrosh thing just feels stale to me. the grr argh attitude is so old and boring storywise, and its obvious that the whole situation will result in the horde being labelled the bad guys yet again. the blizz team have already clearly shown they don't exactly follow the stereotypical fantasy themes, it would be nice if they turned around and made it out like the alliance were the bad guys for once. they need a new arthas, or to send fandrel nutso, something, anything that puts the shoe on the alliance foot for awhile.

[Ryai]

well nothing is 100% certain as yet, but the rumor i heard was that garrosh can't convince the tauren to be all 'grr argh' like he wants them to be, and they don't agree with going nuts against the alliance just cause. so in his mind he believes cairne to be a traitor to the horde, and has him killed with the intent of blaming the kill on the alliance, which pisses off all the tauren, making them go 'grr argh' and gear up to smack down the alliance

which naturally in turns makes the arrogant alliance go "see, told you they're evil" and the whole war thing flares up good and proper this time.

certainly i understand that we won't ever see a true peace, this is afterall world of warcraft, not peacecraft. but the whole garrosh thing just feels stale to me. the grr argh attitude is so old and boring storywise, and its obvious that the whole situation will result in the horde being labelled the bad guys yet again. the blizz team have already clearly shown they don't exactly follow the stereotypical fantasy themes, it would be nice if they turned around and made it out like the alliance were the bad guys for once. they need a new arthas, or to send fandrel nutso, something, anything that puts the shoe on the alliance foot for awhile.

Well the problem also lies in the fact Blizzard has no originality villain wise. Sure they're evil, but they're never smoothe evil like even Disney villains can obtain- especially older Disney movie villains. With Blizzard all bad guys have to be insane, or bordering insanity. Look at Deathwing. Malygos. Even Nozdormu and possibly Ysera! I mean it's like every dragon aspect you trip over, every evil thing you trip over, it's plotting the same old world domination, the same old world destruction or the same old insanity with a side of fries and genocidal tendencies.

Yes there have been irl crazies like this, but even going so far as to start pushing an insane warmongering butthead onto the horde is pushing it and the last straw.

AND WHERE IS SAURFANG IN ALL THIS? BURYING HIS SON CAUSE BLIZZ WANT GARROSH IN THE HORDE FOR WARCHIEF. And they know as well as us that Garrosh wouldn't be able to pull half the shit they're gonna let him do in Cata, cause of Saurfang.

But oh when he gets back, I hope Saurfang cleaves Garrosh.

Cleaves him so hard he can't rezz. Ever. Again.

R.I.P Saurfang the younger. AND COME BACK SOON SAURFANG WE NEED YOU. HORDE NEED YOU.

[Dulanie]

hmmm A thought occured to me while reading this.....What if this is Blizz's way of starting the ball rolling on races being able to cross factions. i.e. a quest chain that leads a Tauren druid to be alliance or a Human warlock to be horde. The reason I say this is that, yes this will cause a huge rift in the Horde, but it will also cause a rift in the alliance. I see the rift between Jaina and Wrynn getting to the point where Jaina's territory becomes a neutral hub in Cata along with more happening in Moonglade.

[Ryai]

hmmm A thought occured to me while reading this.....What if this is Blizz's way of starting the ball rolling on races being able to cross factions. i.e. a quest chain that leads a Tauren druid to be alliance or a Human warlock to be horde. The reason I say this is that, yes this will cause a huge rift in the Horde, but it will also cause a rift in the alliance. I see the rift between Jaina and Wrynn getting to the point where Jaina's territory becomes a neutral hub in Cata along with more happening in Moonglade.

Character Faction Changes- that's why this won't happen. Then ontop of that, there would also be to much inbalance in the game. Everyone would be streaming to alliance and that's just horrible. On hellscream it's bad enough [reportedly 10k alliance to 4k horde] but on some servers there's even less horde [I hear 2-6% is the lowest on a few unlucky servers]. Or on others like Mag [EU] ally would probably go horde, I hear there's like 1 ally for every 15 horde, or something like that. Not checked it yet officially.

[Kalliope]

Well the problem also lies in the fact Blizzard has no originality villain wise. Sure they're evil, but they're never smoothe evil like even Disney villains can obtain- especially older Disney movie villains. With Blizzard all bad guys have to be insane, or bordering insanity. Look at Deathwing. Malygos. Even Nozdormu and possibly Ysera! I mean it's like every dragon aspect you trip over, every evil thing you trip over, it's plotting the same old world domination, the same old world destruction or the same old insanity with a side of fries and genocidal tendencies.

And Disney villains are different....how? There's plenty of insane ones there, and even if they aren't for the duration of the film, many of them go totally nuts at the end for the big fight scene.

Anyway.

I am by no means a WoW lore expert, but from what I've seen...

Garrosh isn't exactly a hero; he's a villain for stirring up trouble between the sides. He's not insane; he's sticking by his values. Malygos was provoked heavily by magic users and never struck me as insane...he just has a strong difference of opinion. Also, ever done that quest line in Coldarra? Keristrazsa and you brutally murder his defenseless wife and taunt him with her corpse just to get him to leave the safety of the Nexus. Nozdormu and Ysera are off fighting for good, as far as we've seen in WoW. And Deathwing is just drunk with power.

Character Faction Changes- that's why this won't happen. Then ontop of that, there would also be to much inbalance in the game. Everyone would be streaming to alliance and that's just horrible. On hellscream it's bad enough [reportedly 10k alliance to 4k horde] but on some servers there's even less horde [I hear 2-6% is the lowest on a few unlucky servers]. Or on others like Mag [EU] ally would probably go horde, I hear there's like 1 ally for every 15 horde, or something like that. Not checked it yet officially.

Horde outnumber alliance 3:1 on Dethecus since transfers went in. It's terrible.

[Ryai]

And Disney villains are different....how? There's plenty of insane ones there, and even if they aren't for the duration of the film, many of them go totally nuts at the end for the big fight scene.

Scar :p

And Tron, and erf, not seen alot. But not all the villains do go nutso near the end. Mean sure for the Hunchback of Notredam but was alot better than the LOL RANDOM insanity Blizz seems to be putting down/into characters alot lately. That's my main beef.

Garrosh isn't exactly a hero; he's a villain for stirring up trouble between the sides. He's not insane; he's sticking by his values.

No, he's not insane yet. But that doesn't mean he won't be- he's already getting arrogant and self centered more than he should. He's getting to vicious.

Malygos was provoked heavily by magic users and never struck me as insane...he just has a strong difference of opinion. Also, ever done that quest line in Coldarra? Keristrazsa and you brutally murder his defenseless wife and taunt him with her corpse just to get him to leave the safety of the Nexus.

Consort not wife :p

But yeah I did. And if you had done more, she wasn't exactly defenseless, Malygos was basically going to DESTROY THE WORLD. He, in the tundra, was capturing defenseless mages, keeping those who would not side with him in boxes awaiting their inevitable deaths. Don't believe me? I had to release FIVE troll mages before I got one that didn't thank me THEN DIE AT MY FEET.

This insanity is also shown when you discover Malygos sorta blew up the blue flights sanctuary. I mean floating bones and arcane aren't what I'd call the actions of a sane man nor dragon.

Then there's also the fact Malygos is FORCING his flight on his insane filled run to destroy all magic users in Azeroth and those who don't side with him, were probably killed. I mean he's abandond the blues still living in Wintersprings and Azshara; he's forcing his flight to also clutch around the nexus, further warping them. I don't really call these the actions of a sane man/dragon.

And then worst of all, in Nexus? He's imprisoned Keri and drove her insane, how is this anymore justifiable than what Nefarion[?] did to the red dragon in BWL?

Nozdormu and Ysera are off fighting for good, as far as we've seen in WoW. And Deathwing is just drunk with power.

While Deathwing was once a benevolent entity, he is now completely evil. He hates all mortal races, and wishes to kill them all. He's also utterly insane, most notably shown when he had the Demon Soul. Deathwing was attached to it, such that even when warned by the goblin alchemists who made his armor that the Demon Soul's energies would kill him if he kept it with him too long, it wasn't enough for him to let go of it. The only way someone could take it from him is if he was dead.

Quote from Wowwiki, several references that he's insane. And with Malygos also being insane, it makes no sense. First manic depressed as ofc he lost his whole flight. Then he gets better- and then he dives off the deep end and it's just wait what?

Ysera is also showing signs of weakening, as mentioned by the drood in the emerald sanctum, when Ysera evidently got confused and instead of offering aid for the ruby flight, instead summons up lashers and emerald owls to attack any who dare enter. This is ofc from the nightmare but still..

And sadly we really don't know if Noz is good, I still try and defend he is but the more I go over it and the more I've read quotes from him...

[Kalliope]

And Disney villains are different....how? There's plenty of insane ones there, and even if they aren't for the duration of the film, many of them go totally nuts at the end for the big fight scene.

Scar :p

And Tron, and erf, not seen alot. But not all the villains do go nutso near the end. Mean sure for the Hunchback of Notredam but was alot better than the LOL RANDOM insanity Blizz seems to be putting down/into characters alot lately. That's my main beef.

2/3 of your examples are adaptations of classical works. I counter with the Queen of Hearts and Cruella de Vil (who are also from adaptations, but at least they're certifiably nuts for the duration of their stories).

Garrosh isn't exactly a hero; he's a villain for stirring up trouble between the sides. He's not insane; he's sticking by his values.

No, he's not insane yet. But that doesn't mean he won't be- he's already getting arrogant and self centered more than he should. He's getting to vicious.

It's a natural progression for characters to go insane once they've gone too far, is what I'm saying.

Malygos was provoked heavily by magic users and never struck me as insane...he just has a strong difference of opinion. Also, ever done that quest line in Coldarra? Keristrazsa and you brutally murder his defenseless wife and taunt him with her corpse just to get him to leave the safety of the Nexus.

Consort not wife :p

Do you know what a consort is?

But yeah I did. And if you had done more, she wasn't exactly defenseless, Malygos was basically going to DESTROY THE WORLD. He, in the tundra, was capturing defenseless mages, keeping those who would not side with him in boxes awaiting their inevitable deaths. Don't believe me? I had to release FIVE troll mages before I got one that didn't thank me THEN DIE AT MY FEET.

This insanity is also shown when you discover Malygos sorta blew up the blue flights sanctuary. I mean floating bones and arcane aren't what I'd call the actions of a sane man nor dragon.

Then there's also the fact Malygos is FORCING his flight on his insane filled run to destroy all magic users in Azeroth and those who don't side with him, were probably killed. I mean he's abandond the blues still living in Wintersprings and Azshara; he's forcing his flight to also clutch around the nexus, further warping them. I don't really call these the actions of a sane man/dragon.

He's brutal and ruthless, but that doesn't make his actions insane, just cruel.

And then worst of all, in Nexus? He's imprisoned Keri and drove her insane, how is this anymore justifiable than what Nefarion[?] did to the red dragon in BWL?

A fitting punishment for what she did to him, is my point.

While Deathwing was once a benevolent entity, he is now completely evil. He hates all mortal races, and wishes to kill them all. He's also utterly insane, most notably shown when he had the Demon Soul. Deathwing was attached to it, such that even when warned by the goblin alchemists who made his armor that the Demon Soul's energies would kill him if he kept it with him too long, it wasn't enough for him to let go of it. The only way someone could take it from him is if he was dead.

Quote from Wowwiki, several references that he's insane. And with Malygos also being insane, it makes no sense. First manic depressed as ofc he lost his whole flight. Then he gets better- and then he dives off the deep end and it's just wait what?

Ysera is also showing signs of weakening, as mentioned by the drood in the emerald sanctum, when Ysera evidently got confused and instead of offering aid for the ruby flight, instead summons up lashers and emerald owls to attack any who dare enter. This is ofc from the nightmare but still..

And sadly we really don't know if Noz is good, I still try and defend he is but the more I go over it and the more I've read quotes from him...

So Deathwing was corrupted by an outside source. He's about the only one you have a real case for. Ysera attacking the wrong people doesn't make her insane, just confused. She's TRYING to do good, but is misguided because her perceptions are addled by the nightmare. But that doesn't make her crazy.

[Ryai]

Just gonna skip the villain thing as it's really coming down more to an argument and don't really want it to come down, just, kinda replying to one thing.

He's brutal and ruthless, but that doesn't make his actions insane, just cruel.

Sorry but he was told he was basically destroying the world; that he is risking destroying the world, Alexstrasza evidently had a chat with him and he ignored her completely etc.That's not just cruel that is bordering insanity, I think the sociopath kind, I'm not sure.

So either he's a psychopath/sociopath or he's insane, cause there is cruelty and well there's blowing the world up.

And then worst of all, in Nexus? He's imprisoned Keri and drove her insane, how is this anymore justifiable than what Nefarion[?] did to the red dragon in BWL?

A fitting punishment for what she did to him, is my point.

I'm sorry but you do remember what Malygos said he was doing.

Making her replace the consort. Basically ... yeah. That sort of thing isn't justifiable, and seeing Keri being warped into some mockery of a blue flight member with runes etched into her skin, trapped in ice, ontop of what else Malygos was probably doing to make her replace his lost consort, isn't something I'd say she'd deserve for punishment for killing his consort that was most likely willingly, helping to kill innocents.

That's all I'm going to say on the matter and I'm just not touching the thread again since we are derailing it now.