*Spoilers* Sylvanas in Catacylsm

[Saturo]

She is completely in the wrong and any last shred of respect I even held for her is now gone. Lets just torment the souls of the dead lets raise them up and pretend this is right because its what happened to me - when the dead die leave them be dont bring them into a damned existence because you need more numbers. You think they'd go willingly? Hardly - I've never liked her and I despise her more even now - she has no morals, no sense of right or wrong only what Sylvanas wants. What a leader, I do things for the sake of me.. not for my people. I agree with Garrosh here and mad props to calling her a <beep> :lol:

All she's done, and doing, is for the survival of her people. I'm pretty sure you'd go to extreme lenghts in her position as well. People are too quick to just judge out the undead. They do have honor, look at the Wrathgate. If she had been pure evil, she'd have just let Putress go ahead with his plan. Did she do that? Nope.

[Nevar]

I despise her - There is NO difference between her and the Lich King now - NONE what so ever, she is damning souls to an existence they do not choose simply because she needs numbers, that is by NO means right. Shes a banshee they specialize in controlling people - shes a kingpin she wants an army and she'll have it. Her people may have an honor but her last shred fell when she died I believe she has none now and very few things can change my view of her.

[Vephriel]

Hail to the Banshee Queen!

Ooh, just realized nearly half of my characters will be Undead come Cataclysm.

[Kalliope]

(She does the Female Blood Elf salute, which is downright hysterical because it's such a condescending salute to begin with ;p)

I lol'd.

You may not like her methods, but Sylvanas is actually also giving her new followers a chance at immortality, provided that they don't fall in battle. I get the feeling that she'd only take people who wanted to come with her if there was a way of checking beforehand, simply because she KNOWS what happens when the raiser of the dead mistreats their underlings. Sylvanas is not Arthas; she understands the pain of coming back from the dead. I wonder if this will be reflected in the resurrection process in the starting area....small amounts of undead therapy before taking them to the front.

[Palladiamorsdeus]

*Laughs* I was wondering when some one else was going to call Sylvanas out. She never collected the Forsaken to protect them, she gathered them so that she'd have like minded people to protect HER. She needed a force for her vengence, and she took what she could get, which was the other outcast undead. Just like she is doing with the Valkyr. Everything is just a tool to Sylvanas, including the horde.

[Nevar]

I also believe the only reason she didnt let him go along with it was because it was HER city you think she'd sit around and look like a giant wimp - No she didnt do it for her people she did not for her city thats all she wants is power. I'm also pretty sure she only was there because Thrall would have doubled her off and beat her around if she didnt, HE was more than likely the reason reason she chose to show "sorrow" or whatever she can show.

[Nevar]

*Laughs* I was wondering when some one else was going to call Sylvanas out. She never collected the Forsaken to protect them, she gathered them so that she'd have like minded people to protect HER. She needed a force for her vengence, and she took what she could get, which was the other outcast undead. Just like she is doing with the Valyr. Everything is just a tool to Sylvanas, including the horde.

Also truth

[Zangor]

anyone else notice the new grand executor is named after oxhorn's rouge mortuus?

[Razzy]

It kind of seems like she's trying to push Garrosh's buttons.

Forsaken are pretty cool, not gonna lie. But trolls still be da' best, 'mon!

[Vephriel]

The Forsaken have a miserable existence all in all. They've been outcast, despised, ridiculed, hunted down. Sylvanas herself has seen an incredible amount of misery and suffering. She is a creature of vengeance, warped beyond all recognition. She may not be the charismatic leader that other factions have, but she does care for her people. They're all each other has. It's not in the same sense that a normal person would think of affection. No, she's gathered these misfits and together they find a way to survive and keep going. They bitterly face a world where their very existence seems hopeless and futile. Sylvanas does not enslave the undead like the Lich King. She is not in possession of their minds nor does she force their decisions. If you want to look at it one way you could say she gives members of the Horde a second chance at life even if it is in an undead body.

At the end of the war with the Lich King, what do they have to look forward to? They're still walking abominations that most of the populace would rather see dead or destroyed. They've been forced to cling to this aggressive way of survival. She's not a fool. She knows they're not wanted in the Horde, it's always been an alliance of convenience. Sylvanas is taking things into her own hands and ensuring that there will be a future for the Forsaken. She is not above any means to get what she wants. Morals and ethical standards died a long time ago along with the rest of her humanity. She is not a compassionate being, nor should she act like one. She is the Banshee Queen, and it's about time she stopped lingering by the sidelines complying with the Horde. I'm all for seeing her rise to power. I think most have underestimated her and are now starting to fear her, which they should.

[Nevar]

I dont believe she should be feared in my eyes rather than frowned upon, the only Forsaken I can tolerate are the honorable ones - the ones that long for humanity and as such cling to their morals and their hope that one day they may become human again as bleak as that future is. When Sylvanas rallied the Forsaken she did it because she needed an army not because she cared about them but the fact is now that maybe she does care about them as convienace as they are an army that will defend her with their lives. This is what she wants if they die so in turn would she, she'd have no one to defend her or to work for her. I love most faction leaders but in my eyes shes evil and I cant think of her as anything but, I understand some people like her but you cant argue she isnt evil because she is and the people who dislike her, dislike her for this reason.

[Saturo]

[...]the only Forsaken I can tolerate are the honorable ones - the ones that long for humanity and as such cling to their morals and their hope that one day they may become human again as bleak as that future is.

So the only ones you tolerate are the ones that can't get over their deaths, and mourn their fate?

Those aren't good Forsaken. The good Forsaken realize what has happened, and see the bright sides of it. If that means that they get a reason to kill all humans, why object? :P

[Vephriel]

I never said I was trying to paint her as a lovey-dovey sparkly angel of goodness. I find so much appeal in her because she is so twisted and corrupt (and has a right to be!). I'm not trying to alter anyone's opinion of her, just laying down the way I see it.

Haters gonna hate.

[Palladiamorsdeus]

Oh I will. *Laughs* The sad thing is, I was starting to kind of like where they were taking Sylvanas during TBC and Wrath. They were starting to expand on her personality, and kind of show the potential for the noble high elf that was once there to make a return. And then we get this in Catacylsm, and it absolutely disgusts me. So much for character development, eh Blizzard?

[Nevar]

[...]the only Forsaken I can tolerate are the honorable ones - the ones that long for humanity and as such cling to their morals and their hope that one day they may become human again as bleak as that future is.

So the only ones you tolerate are the ones that can't get over their deaths, and mourn their fate?

Those aren't good Forsaken. The good Forsaken realize what has happened, and see the bright sides of it. If that means that they get a reason to kill all humans, why object?

THOSE are the best forsaken you can find they dont mourn but they have good hearts they havent turned into something alien and unfeeling. THATS a bad Forsaken to me, the ones that take glee in harming others, Its like oh I'm dead so I'll make others suffer like me, oh and I was once a human so I'm going to kill them too. I like the forsaken serving for the Argent Crusade the ones that see good in life and know it must be preserved at all costs they arent weak rather very strong they know the strength and will they once had and they refuse to give that up.

[Palladiamorsdeus]

I have to agree with Nevar there. Yes, it sucks that you are trapped inside of a rotting shell. But you can either make the best of it, or you can make the worst of it. A lot of forsaken make the worst of it, or try to make as many people as possible just as dead as they are. That's not cool to me. That's just a petty and vengeful thing to do, and those particular forsaken absolutely deserve to be put down before they can spread that suffering any further. Maybe if some one hadn't been asleep at the wheel, the whole Putridus and Wrath Gate fiasco could have been avoided.

[Saturo]

[...]the only Forsaken I can tolerate are the honorable ones - the ones that long for humanity and as such cling to their morals and their hope that one day they may become human again as bleak as that future is.

So the only ones you tolerate are the ones that can't get over their deaths, and mourn their fate?

Those aren't good Forsaken. The good Forsaken realize what has happened, and see the bright sides of it. If that means that they get a reason to kill all humans, why object? :P

THOSE are the best forsaken you can find they dont mourn but they have good hearts they havent turned into something alien and unfeeling. THATS a bad Forsaken to me, the ones that take glee in harming others, Its like oh I'm dead so I'll make others suffer like me, oh and i was once a human so I'm going to kill them too. I like the forsaken serving for the Argent Crusade the ones that see good in life and know it must be preserved at all costs they arent weak rather very strong they know the strength and will they once had and they refuse to give that up.

That wasn't really what I meant, but good point. And take Leonid Bartholomew for an example. He's pretty damn sad about his fate.

[Dizzy]

I love garrosh's lines here (i don't care for his character really)
but i really really really don't like sylvanas, so when he calls her !*#$&@ it's hilarious to me lol.
mainly cuz how often do we get to see NPCs cussing hoho

and for the sake of not arguing, i won't get into any further opinions on the whole undead subject :p

i only care about what races look cool, dammit!

[Palladiamorsdeus]

Thank you Sat, I couldn't remember his name to save my life. He is a shining example of a Forsaken who has not given up, in spite of his bad situation.

[Saturo]

The thing is, I'm just getting the feeling that some of you are all "They're all evil, we should round 'em up and shoot them!".

Of course I understand that that's not your point, I just got that feeling a few posts ago.