*Spoilers* Sylvanas in Catacylsm

[Nevar]

No, I dont feel that way I do say I dislike Sylvanas and I also dislike The Forsaken who seek to spread their misery and end life on Azeroth if you arent 1 of the 2 I'm cool with you. Leonid however is by far my favorite Forsaken NPC in game he has the opinion I have really, too bad I cant make my undead hunter and join The Argent Crusade...

[Saturo]

You can get a Tabard of the Argent Dawn or Argent Crusade, and a guild named that.

[Nevar]

You can get a Tabard of the Argent Dawn or Argent Crusade, and a guild named that.

Good point! Must have Argent Crusade tabard!

[Anansi]

I despise her - There is NO difference between her and the Lich King now - NONE what so ever, she is damning souls to an existence they do not choose simply because she needs numbers, that is by NO means right. Shes a banshee they specialize in controlling people - shes a kingpin she wants an army and she'll have it. Her people may have an honor but her last shred fell when she died I believe she has none now and very few things can change my view of her.

There is a big difference between Sylvanas and the Lich King. The Lich King raised legions of undead as mindless Scourge, under his total command and bent utterly to his will. He used those Scourge as meat grinder fodder troops for mass destruction in a plan to over-run Azeroth.

Sylvanas has found control of that power, but is using it to essentially mimic procreation amongst the Forsaken. She is not raising massive armies with a mind bent to global domination and annihilation. Sylvanas is very keenly aware of the powers of the Lich King and the implications thereof, and she is far too shrewd to let history repeat itself. And as she says in that exchange, she serves the Horde. She does not want an army, she wants the Forsaken to endure, there's a big difference (unless you think people have children specifically to become soldiers in an army) between the two. The Forsaken have full control of their wills and have always been free to do as they please. Very few Forsaken have expressed regret at being what they are, only for how they are perceived. You cannot say she is damning anyone, as when a being dies, they do not choose what happens to them. Theologically speaking, they choose while alive, not after death.

Now, what forces will be put upon her, both from without and within to abuse that power remain to be seen. Will Garrosh consider this power Sylvanas controls an army-maker? Will those from her own faction attempt to apply pressure to bend her to their desires? Will she fight a battle with herself? All this remains to be seen and there are many possible outcomes.

[Saturo]

I despise her - There is NO difference between her and the Lich King now - NONE what so ever, she is damning souls to an existence they do not choose simply because she needs numbers, that is by NO means right. Shes a banshee they specialize in controlling people - shes a kingpin she wants an army and she'll have it. Her people may have an honor but her last shred fell when she died I believe she has none now and very few things can change my view of her.

There is a big difference between Sylvanas and the Lich King. The Lich King raised legions of undead as mindless Scourge, under his total command and bent utterly to his will. He used those Scourge as meat grinder fodder troops for mass destruction in a plan to over-run Azeroth.

Sylvanas has found control of that power, but is using it to essentially mimic procreation amongst the Forsaken. She is not raising massive armies with a mind bent to global domination and annihilation. Sylvanas is very keenly aware of the powers of the Lich King and the implications thereof, and she is far too shrewd to let history repeat itself. And as she says in that exchange, she serves the Horde. She does not want an army, she wants the Forsaken to endure, there's a big difference (unless you think people have children specifically to become soldiers in an army) between the two. The Forsaken have full control of their wills and have always been free to do as they please. Very few Forsaken have expressed regret at being what they are, only for how they are perceived. You cannot say she is damning anyone, as when a being dies, they do not choose what happens to them. Theologically speaking, they choose while alive, not after death.

Exactly!

[Nevar]

You can say that but I have a strong belief that when a soul dies you should not resurrect that soul let alone as something it 9 times out of 10 would never want. Would you really want to disturb its peace so it may live again? Would that forsaken say really want to be alive knowing all of its loved ones are dead - maybe it was at peace. I dont support her for doing this nor will I ever, You can argue as many points as you like because you like her its the same thing I could do about Wrynn but it wouldnt change how you see him, so why not agree to disagree. You like her and I dont - you dont see what shes doing as wrong and I do. The fact always remains that some are unhappy as they are and I'm pretty sure wish they either 1 were human or 2 that they could finally rest.

[Saturo]

you dont see what shes doing as wrong and I do.

That's nonsense. Of course we see what she's doing. The difference is that you believe the Forsaken still have their souls. The whole difference between Resurrection and necromancy is that one returns the soul to the body, and the other the body to life. They desecrate the body, not the soul.

[Nevar]

Some may still have their souls or their memories, Sylvanas clearly remembers who she is and what she was. MY opinion as that it is WRONG something that is laid to rest should never been brought back once again, The forsaken prior to this had no choice and she did not bring them about, it wasnt right to bring these about either, thats my opinion.

[Saturo]

Memories aren't souls. The soul, in my understanding, is the very essence of a person. The memories are just experiences. Just because Sylvanas remembers who she is and what she did doesn't mean that she has a soul.

[Anansi]

I have to agree with Nevar there. Yes, it sucks that you are trapped inside of a rotting shell. But you can either make the best of it, or you can make the worst of it. A lot of forsaken make the worst of it, or try to make as many people as possible just as dead as they are. That's not cool to me. That's just a petty and vengeful thing to do, and those particular forsaken absolutely deserve to be put down before they can spread that suffering any further. Maybe if some one hadn't been asleep at the wheel, the whole Putridus and Wrath Gate fiasco could have been avoided.

It's not so cut and dried, black and white as many of you seem to believe. The Forsaken are just that, people who have been cast out, turned on and destroyed because of something beyond their control. Their own people forsook them after they fell and were raised as Scourge and then regained free will. How do you suppose that made them feel?
Over the years, the Forsaken have developed their own culture, one with very very deep roots of bitterness born out of a sense of betrayal, out of not belonging, out of knowing they are something not natural or even alive. There are no conscious decisions to make lemonade out of those lemons, it's not that simple. The culture of the Forsaken has grown in it's own way as any culture does, unfortunately this one has some pretty messed up roots, perhaps the most messed up that could possibly exist. You're not going to be a cheery, do-good samaritan in that situation either.

Blizzard has done an incredible job with their faction lore in WoW so that there are no black and white, good and evil, right and wrong scenarios, it is all very much shades of gray just like our own world. However, because it is a work of fiction which we can step back and look at, we can do so with critical thought and objectivity and look over the depth and breadth of the lore and realise what is being wrought.
But if you choose to put yourself directly in it, you must also realise that what you personally believe or feel is not fact nor does it or should it apply unquestioningly to all.

As for the souls debate, theologically speaking the soul leaves the body at death and returns to whence it came. Some faiths assert that the soul chooses where it goes afterwards, some faiths believe the soul is assigned to a body by god, some believe all manner of different ideas regarding the soul.
But memory is a biochemical process in the brain tissue. Memory is not the soul, memory depends on the functioning of a brain to access those memories. Memory is basically your hard drive's file system and the brain is the CPU and OS which processes, archives and finds it all. Does your computer have a soul? Because really that's all memory really is.

Now, one might argue that the soul is the emotional interface with those memories, the designate that determines the emotional reaction to that stored data. But personality too is chemical compounds and reactions, which is why drugs can do dramatically alter a personality. If you break out the known science, there's nothing really left that can be ascribed as a soul. Everything we are is biochemical and bioelectric impulses, reactions, processes and so forth. It could be the soul is merely the string which ties the body to the divine, and that string is recalled at death. Assuming the being can come back to life, all that is lost is the connection to the divine, and thus, be Forsaken.

[Nevar]

Why argue the point and try to change the opinions of people who disagree with what shes doing. You cant please everyone and make them happy, I believe good can exist in anything as long as IT wants it there. Not everyones going to be happy with changes that are happening and nor will everyone always be happy. I dont like her and I cant like her, I myself see it as morally wrong and I dislike that, but as long as you like her why does it matter that I dont?

[Razzy]

Without disrespecting anyone, why can't someone have an opinion without someone else trying to change it/saying they're wrong?

[Saturo]

I'm not trying to change anyones opinion, I'm just arguing here. If someone reads one of my posts, and thinks "Oh wait, that's actually right, I never thought of it that way before", then fine. I'm not going out all "ZOMG UR WRONG IM RIGHT U SUCK!". At least I'm not trying to.

[Razzy]

I'm not trying to change anyones opinion, I'm just arguing here. If someone reads one of my posts, and thinks "Oh wait, that's actually right, I never thought of it that way before", then fine. I'm not going out all "ZOMG UR WRONG IM RIGHT U SUCK!". At least I'm not trying to.

Understood.

[Nevar]

Without disrespecting anyone, why can't someone have an opinion without someone else trying to change it/saying they're wrong?

I'm not trying to disrespect, I'm trying to say I dont like her and what shes doing and the reasons there for, I'm not trying to change anyones opinion just show my side and why I dislike her

[Anansi]

Without disrespecting anyone, why can't someone have an opinion without someone else trying to change it/saying they're wrong?

I am just trying to rationally argue a point which is, I feel, being met with irrational reactions. Hence, having an argument in a hopefully informative and civil manner. My aim is to provide some wider perspective on the issue, really. I'm not trying to aggressively change anyone's mind but I do hope to add some points for consideration and temperance.

[Vephriel]

I am just trying to rationally argue a point which is, I feel, being met with irrational reactions. Hence, having an argument in a hopefully informative and civil manner. My aim is to provide some wider perspective on the issue, really. I'm not trying to aggressively change anyone's mind but I do hope to add some points for consideration and temperance.

Well said!

I'm not trying to change anyone's mind either. I'm fully aware of what Sylvanas is doing and I certainly don't look at her through rose coloured glasses. I know that I like her for that, and it's fine if others don't. I just think the Forsaken get misunderstood on some levels and like presenting different angles, but I'm definitely not out to change opinions.

[tramani]

haha , go forsaken go

[Mania]

I have such a crush on Sylvanas. Her and Koltira Deathweaver

(Hmm ... Maybe I should go Google slash- No! No, bad Mania!)

*cough*

Anyway! Ideally Sylvanas would recruit living people who wanted to be raised after their death into a type of earthly immortality. I suspect that she would be just as hated if she did, though, and her people would still die off. She's in a tough spot ... but nothing really justifies raising unwilling dead.

[Saturo]

That whole "recruit volunteers for undeath" thing got me thinking. What happened to the Cult of the Damned? Those guys would make excellent necromancers.

I gotta' go tell Sylvanas!
*Ruahes away*