Hunters and Expertise

[SpiritBinder]

GG from GC

Shots that cost focus should give a partial refund when they miss. If that isn't happening, we'll fix it.

We don't think Steady and Cobra Shot need to provide resources even when they miss. We're not going for a design where hunters can be certain to always have maximum resource income in PvP. As long as they have enough focus, they'll be fine. If we see evidence that hunters are focus-starved, we'll adjust accordingly, but we haven't seen that so far. There hasn't been a ton of PvP testing on beta yet. There has been a lot of speculation, and while that is still valuable feedback, it is understandably less valuable.

If Shred and Backstab were so reliable in PvP, I don't think there would be such a storied history of druids and rogues asking to buff alternatives to the positional requirements or just removing the positional requirements for PvP. In other words, I think "melee can nearly always attack from behind in PvP" is overstated.

If hunters get close to hit and expertise caps, they should do fine even against Agi users with high dodge chances. They won't do fine against a rogue that pops Evasion, but Evasion is intended as a survivability cooldown. Different classes are different and cooldowns and durations all vary, but I don't know that rogues have a great counter for Deterrence either.

The loss of minimum range is a huge hunter PvP buff. I don't think we've seen the full ramifications of it yet.

I swear sometimes GC really has no idea what is going on...

We don't think Steady and Cobra Shot need to provide resources even when they miss.

We have the slowest energy build up of all the classes who have a dynamic resource, and the only way to build that is to SS or CS. You can not cast SS or CS while moving unless you switch to Fox, sacrificing a decent amount of attack power.
How about they just make rouges and druids Specials not regenerate and resource on miss, then make them use an ability with a cast timer on it the only way to get their resource back, and to use it on the move they have to drop any poisons attached to wepaons, oh and it it can miss too?

We're not going for a design where hunters can be certain to always have maximum resource income in PvP. As long as they have enough focus, they'll be fine.

He realy thinks this is the only issue attached to it as well? Ok, sure we have lost of focus. E.g. We hard cast an Aimed them follow with a Chimera and both miss. Good bye all focus and all Damage and 2+ globals. But say we still have full focus some how, Oh wait... Aimmed again while standing there and taking it (not so good), how about we Chimera,..oh wait 9 sec cooldown still. Ok I'll scatter them.../miss!... GG, oh and now scatter is on cooldown.

If hunters get close to hit and expertise caps, they should do fine even against Agi users with high dodge chances. They won't do fine against a rogue that pops Evasion, but Evasion is intended as a survivability cooldown. Different classes are different and cooldowns and durations all vary, but I don't know that rogues have a great counter for Deterrence either.

This whole paragraph is a joke... Rouge pops Evasion, yet has complete and full dps and defensive cool downs available... there is ZERO impact on the rogues capabilities. Sure different different classes are different and cooldowns and durations all vary, but to then say ""but I don't know that rogues have a great counter for Deterrence either"" is just so fascicle as a comparison. What count dose a rogue have? Ummm sit there and watch his resource replenish while the hunter jumps around like and idiot, not being able to regen anything, do any dps and pray a trap id off cooldown (oh and hope it doesn't miss, lawl -_-) and then bend over and take it from the kitty rogue in wait when it wears off.

He has never played a hunter in his life.

/end rant

[Chimera]

So much wrong with this ugh >< I have max capped hunters and a rogue so i know how both play and i can def say they are completely different. As sub, and in assass i was having great energy regain, i hardly ever was worried about getting my finishing moves off on targets with like 4-5 combos on them and at near-death, cause i usually always have enough energy to use them. As a hunter, im constantly struggling to keep my focus up unless the mobs are reflecting the gear i and my group are wearing (or at the very least be stronger then what myself and my group is wearing).

I do my normal rotation on a mob, its dead, im out of focus and by the time im done replenishing my focus off steady shots, the mob i was pew pewing is dead, my dps is crap, everyone else is sitting comfortably in resource and they outshine my dps like its no sweat (this example is actually taken from what i experience in non-HoT dungeons since im in a lot of valor/raid finder gear and run with people who are usually in the same position as me gear-wise).

We have NO way to regenerate focus as a buff (unless surv has anything, i dont play surv specc), all our -class- focus regens are natural over time regen and steady/cobra shot which requires shooting a combat engaging mob, and beast mastery's talent Fevor (fervor?). I am a great hunter, i am a skilled marksman specc hunter, i love being MM, i know that i am a great contributor to the group dps wise and i know and have seen that my dps can make or break groups when fighting against bosses of there are any lacking members in dps, i do have great focus regen WITH steady shot because its a main and very essential piece to the specc and i dont see a great difference when i switch to fox specc during a phase that requires moving around, but i do struggle with mobs who are weaker then my gear in terms of gaining focus, so much so that it greatly affects my performance for the worst.

TL;DR Ghost is going to KILL US.. i hope he reconsiders these decisions after he gets the feedback from the community ;^;

[Wassa]

I stopped PvPing on my hunters since the focus change. It's just not fun anymore. Having one move (well, two, but you use either cobra or steady depending on spec) as the only major way to replenish our resource is flawed, especially when it has a cast time and you need to stand still, or nerf your dps, to cast it. Oh, and it can miss. Whee!

"I think "melee can nearly always attack from behind in PvP" is overstated."

Who overstated this? I never heard about this in PvP. I PvP as a feral druid and a lot of times I just go "forget this" and spam mangle instead of even trying of shred because you can NEVER get behind someone in PvP for any amount of time. "Nearly always" pleeeeeease.

I'm not going to hit on the other points since I don't PvP on my hunters anymore, but it just makes me facepalm.

Spirit, I think Ghostcrawler did say he doesn't play a hunter. Now I'm thinking he doesn't PvP... on any class.

[Kalliope]

Wait. How often do you miss in PvP? I generally don't, unless the player I'm shooting at has popped some sort of defensive ability that increases miss rate. If it's something that can't be removed, then it's a defensive cooldown I don't waste my focus on. That'd be like dpsing a pally with his bubble up.

Fox is my primary aspect for PvP. Not that I'm the greatest at it (from far), but I consider any time in hawk as a bonus.

As for hitting someone from behind in PvP, rogues certainly have no trouble doing it. Feral druids still have a number of stuns at their disposal; I see plenty in bgs still able to hit people from behind. It strikes me as a "your results may vary" sort of thing.

I dunno. While I think that the dissenting opinions bring up some valid points, I don't think GC is totally off base either.

[SpiritBinder]

Wait. How often do you miss in PvP?

Is this in CATA, or MOP?

Currently (In Cata) rogues average at about 20% dodge and kitties 25% in so so gear. Atm (in Cata) we cant miss, but in MOP these %'s will apply to all our shot's that are not coming from behind. My main gripe is the lack of awareness and issues that this make on GC's behalf, and the "But you have deterrence?" as if it had anything to do with it.

Am I against expertise? No, not really, I can see it adding another "thing" to balance (to a certain degree) Am I concerned about it's introduction and it's impact on pvp, certainly... And I even more concerned about the developers not foreseeing/balancing these... even more so.

[pop]

I don't know if I should cry or should laugh. IMHO give us unglyphed HoT while deterrence, and maybe and over time full focus return if miss, /problem.

Something like this; if you're shot is missed or dodge/evaded, the full amount of cost will be returned in 3 seconds.

[Kalliope]

Wait. How often do you miss in PvP?

Is this in CATA, or MOP?

Currently (In Cata) rogues average at about 20% dodge and kitties 25% in so so gear. Atm (in Cata) we cant miss, but in MOP these %'s will apply to all our shot's that are not coming from behind. My main gripe is the lack of awareness and issues that this make on GC's behalf, and the "But you have deterrence?" as if it had anything to do with it.

Am I against expertise? No, not really, I can see it adding another "thing" to balance (to a certain degree) Am I concerned about it's introduction and it's impact on pvp, certainly... And I even more concerned about the developers not foreseeing/balancing these... even more so.

There's still got to be a minimum amount of expertise to "cap" (such a misnomer) you for PvP, much like there's a hit cap. That's why tanks don't have these problems in PvE. So there should be an equivalent number for PvP.

[Sasrei]

I just laughed when I saw this.. I swear GC really doesnt know a single thing about hunters.. we have so bad focus issues most people opt to use a tier 2 peice pve set just for the focus regen. In pvp im always focus starved. Shots that cost focus will give some focus back apparently but all our ccs/snares/traps have a chance of being dodged/missed. Even cobra shot and steady shot can be dodged. Without my tier peice in pve I am focus starved.. they increased focus from 9 to 14 for cobra/steady but if it misses, it wont count.

Actually you cant really "cap" in pvp, in pve yes but rogues/druids have a heck of alot higher number of agility that essentially when they pop evasion, they will probably not get hit by hunters at all. Now in mop hunters will have to cap hit, expertise and some spell pen so that all our shots/traps have a higher chance to hit. We of course like melee will have it easier when you target has there back to you, but I have never seen a person run backwards to me while kiting lol.

"In other words, I think "melee can nearly always attack from behind in PvP" is overstated."
That was what people were saying about the whole melee vs hunter thing about lessening the dodge by being behind a target. Its in my view the most stupid thing I have ever heard. Even if melee cant always get behind their target, melee can always try but its impossible when your 30 yards away from your target and especially when your trying to kite your target. Kiting was the main thing Gc said hunters were good at it, its our niche now we have to deal with a higher dodge as we try to kite our targets. I wish they would fix our agility/dodge ratio to be more like the other agility classes, we arent even close to them.

"The loss of minimum range is a huge hunter PvP buff. I don't think we've seen the full ramifications of it yet."
Wait.. what? Any good hunter stayed range, we arent meant for melee type combat. Its why we are ranged. So essentially we went from a "dead zone" to having our huge shots/cc/slows/focus regen shots have a higher chance of missing or being dodged. Did we upgrade im not sure, they just "fixed" the one thing that was stupid in the first place and should have been fixed a long time ago..

We need more peeps to go test in pvp lol. In pve im not that.. worried, pvp I am though. I kinda like pvp but it was always a struggle now if I have to see my shots get "dodge" "miss" that'll.. suck and sure as heck make pvp not enjoyable. And hunters werent really that great in pvp to begin with.

Oh and detterence has never saved my life in pvp. Never. I die from dots or the crits that get through due to lack of any form of self heals and thats with spirit bond and spirit mend up.

[Kalliope]

We need more peeps to go test in pvp lol. In pve im not that.. worried, pvp I am though. I kinda like pvp but it was always a struggle now if I have to see my shots get "dodge" "miss" that'll.. suck and sure as heck make pvp not enjoyable. And hunters werent really that great in pvp to begin with.

Oh and detterence has never saved my life in pvp. Never. I die from dots or the crits that get through due to lack of any form of self heals and thats with spirit bond and spirit mend up.

Bolded for relevance.

No offense, Sas, but if you're not using your toolbox correctly, then of course it's going to be a struggle. You use deterrence to counter ranged attacks BEFORE they hit you, not after you're dotted up.

This is why it's very hard to give some of these complaints weight. :/

[Sasrei]

Right cause when im being attacked by melee and trying to kite I always notice the lock/hunter etc that comes from the distance to dot me up so I know exactly when to hit detterence in order to prevent constant dots..
tooltip reads: when activated, causes you to deflect melee attacks, ranged attacks and spells, and reduces all damage taken by 30%.
Im not that awesome in pvp to notice the little gnome lock running about dotting me up.. my eye sight and attention span isnt that great.

[Kalliope]

Group fights are group fights. Totally different animal. When someone's getting focused down by multiple people, regardless of what class they are, they are going to die once their defensive cds run out if they're not getting healed.

Not having healers in bgs is a completely different issue than the ones brought up in the first post, which are more focused on 1v1 fights.

Oh, and since I missed addressing this before, there IS a hit "cap" for PvP. You're not supposed to be able to hit a rogue through evasion or a hunter through deterrence. You're not gearing to do that; you're gearing to hit them the rest of the time.

Again, this is why it is difficult to give some of these arguments consideration.

[Royi]

Double the speed of normal regen for hunters. That should solve it

[Sasrei]

People heal in bgs? this happens? really? seriously? Is that they guy your screaming at everyone to kill but they decide to kill well actually be farmed in the middle? We have a "hit" cap but rogues/druids have a large dodge base off of agility which can be slightly negated if the target has their back at you. Against other non agility classes yah you can cap but the agility classes have dodge ratio that I dont know it cause im an agility user but I dont have alot of it but still.. Detterence is changing?

[Kalliope]

Yes, healers heal in battlegrounds. Battlegrounds without healers are irrelevant for this argument, since all dps die without healers if they get out-dpsed/cced.

Oops, det isn't changing; I misread a tooltip.

But in related news, posthaste changed again in the latest build: now it removes ALL movement impairing effects when you disengage. That's good news, since a similar effect previously required good timing with master's call.

See, when GC or other devs are looking at balance, they're not looking at what we're seeing. They're looking at builds we don't yet have access to. So things that seem really off to us might not appear so behind the scenes.

[Royi]

NEW UPDATES:

Hunter (Forums)
Talents

•A Murder of Crows If used on a target below 20% health, the cooldown is reduced to 15 seconds. 60 seconds. 60 sec cooldown. 2 min cooldown.
•Fervor Instantly restores 50 Focus to you and your pet. and an additional 50 Focus over 10 sec.
•Posthaste Your Disengage frees you from one movement impairing effect all movement impairing effects and increases your movement speed by 60% for 8 sec.

Beast Mastery

•Focus Fire Consumes your pet's Frenzy Effect stack, restoring 10 Focus to your pet and increasing your ranged haste by 8% for each Frenzy Effect stack consumed. stack consumed.

Pets

•Dust Cloud Your tallstrider kicks up an a cloud of dust, causing all enemies within 0 10 yards to be afflicted by Weakened Armor.
•Spirit Beast Blessing (New) The spirit beast blesses your allies, increasing the mastery of all party and raid members by 3,500 within 100 yards. Lasts for until cancelled. 60 yd range. Instant. 45 sec cooldown. Special Ability.

(mmochamp)

(at least we get 50 more focus over 10 sec with fervor???)

Cool SB buff too

[Kalliope]

Yeah, now we know what happened to roar of recovery.

[Ickabob]

The loss of minimum range is a huge hunter PvP buff. I don't think we've seen the full ramifications of it yet.

I left a reply quoting this. I stated that this is just GC code for "Expect to get nerfed to the ground." I got reported for trolling, banned for 72 hours and my reply deleted. Looks like he don't like getting called out. If he keeps up like this, he won't have to nerf us; not fixing this will do that on it's own.

[Sasrei]

How was that trolling? I laughed hard when I saw that lol. touchy people I swear!

[Ickabob]

I dunno. Some Ghostcrawler fan boy must have got butt hurt. :\

[Sasrei]

All they had to do was keep like it was but just increased overall hit, that way we wouldnt have to deal with the crappy dodge stuff as ranged but would just be like the other ranged classes and have to get a large amount to hit to hit. I didnt mind converting expertise to hit, its what I do now anyways.