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[Teigan]

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[Vephriel]

*nods* The 'ideal' perception of a woman has certainly changed in the recent decade or so.

To further the point:
Marilyn Monroe was a size 16, and she was an iconic sex symbol in her days.

[Golden]

I wonder how these underweight models feel inside. I for one have always been extremely thin and only recently have gotten to a point when a doctor wouldn't send me to an ER the moment they saw me. Now that I've gotten out of that hell hole I see how horrible and weak I had felt all my life without really noticing it.

But these people... I'm sure all of them have been normal at some point in their lives, so why can't they tell that their body is screaming for energy non stop? I for one would NEVER want to go back...

[Mania]

Have you seen Kate Harding's Illustrated BMI Categories? (Or in slideshow form.)

Or my favorite comparison chart .. arggh! I can't find it now. It's a grid of height vs. weight, and you can send in your picture and stats and they will put you on the grid. You get to see the huge diversity in human shapes -- it's really neat. I wish I could find the link now.

Anyway ...

I for one have always been extremely thin and only recently have gotten to a point when a doctor wouldn't send me to an ER the moment they saw me. Now that I've gotten out of that hell hole I see how horrible and weak I had felt all my life without really noticing it.

I am very glad for you that you are getting out of that place and feeling better. I don't have much experience with that, but I do have a lot of empathy for you.

I wonder how these underweight models feel inside. [...] But these people... I'm sure all of them have been normal at some point in their lives, so why can't they tell that their body is screaming for energy non stop?

Ah, but now you have to be a bit careful. Some people are really very, very thin -- and yet healthy -- because that's the way they are. Lots of others have tried to force themselves into thinness and done damage to themselves that way ... but it's important that we recognize that there is a vast diversity of human shapes and sizes, as well as coming to an understanding of where we actually fit into that diversity, not just where we think we want to fit.

As I mentioned in another post, I've gotten involved with the fat acceptance community. Fat acceptance gets a bad rap in popular media, but the heart of it for me is that we've turned weight, and specifically fat, into a moral issue. Fat = ugly, lazy, disgusting, stupid, unhealthy, immoral, sinful, lustful, unsexy, gluttonous, greedy ...

But it's not a moral issue. It's just a descriptor. Thin works the same way. So does tall and short. We've put various moral judgement onto these words because humans tend to do that, but the point is that we don't have to.

I am 5'7" tall and weigh 225 lbs (at least the last time I checked -- I rarely bother). That means my BMI is 35.2 -- or severely obese. I'm comfortable with the word 'fat' because I don't see it as a moral indictment, but it took me a long, long time to get to this point. (Others aren't okay with 'fat', and that's fine too.)

And yeah, I can talk about this all day.

[Saturo]

Aye, this is just sad. I also used to have an eating disorder, but that was due to my depression. It wasn't one of the "must look better" kind of things, it was more of a "what's the point, I'm still going to die and rot". Personally, I think the overall media gets an undeserved bad reputation here. The part of TV/Magazines that are weight obsessive is surprisingly small. For someone to say "tv is bad cuz' its got bad ideals" is wrong IMO. It's not TVs fault, it's certain organizations, and I'm thinking the fashion industry here.
And Mania, I think you'd be happy that you're not in Sweden. Fat acceptance communities get a REALLY bad reputation here. For some reason, people seem to think that obesity is plain bad. If you're obese, it's because you're lazy. Youre a burden to society and it's because you're too lazy to exercise the weight off of you. The general opinion of fat acceptance is that it's "people who think it's okay to have a health issue". I've even heard it being compared to "aids is ok". Some of these people... Anyhow, not the topic.

Does any of you happen to know a site that has a conversion between the US and the European size-scales? Knowing my EU size ain't much good if ya compare with these sizes.

[Sarayana]

*sigh* I had a friend driven to anorexia by her mother - some hellish, vicious circle where the grandmother had done the same to the mother. My friend is very short - I think about 4"8 or so - and at ~size 0 she looked terrible. Bones jutting out, no muscle definition. I would say that you're stopping short of the truth Teigan; the type of self-starvation resulting from these skewed body images are a very slow, cruel form of society-endorsed suicide.

The problem is that the "beauty" ideal created through photoshop isn't realistically attainable. If you're size 0, you don't have those rounded shapes around your joints. You don't have the muscle mass to have that definition. Yet if you're size 8, apparently you're fat with all its implications of laziness, lack of self-control, and gluttony. People who are healthy according to the BMI and any doctor's examination are treated as though they are the sick ones, rather than the ones that subsist on mineral water and lettuce (I'm not kidding, one of the recent runway models to die lived off that diet for several months before her death).

However! I hate to say this, but I think this thread will be filled with people agreeing with you, Teigan. I sincerely doubt the person that prompted this post will even read the whole thing. I will be incredibly happy if I'm proven wrong.

[Mania]

For some reason, people seem to think that obesity is plain bad. If you're obese, it's because you're lazy. Youre a burden to society and it's because you're too lazy to exercise the weight off of you. The general opinion of fat acceptance is that it's "people who think it's okay to have a health issue". I've even heard it being compared to "aids is ok".

That actually sounds a lot like the media I've seen here in America recently. I don't have an opinion to share on fashion or entertainment media, but the news coverage of obesity here has been getting steadily more virulent. The recent focus on health care in the US has made it worse -- lots of 'I don't want to pay for your diabetes and heart attacks' going around.*

Does any of you happen to know a site that has a conversion between the US and the European size-scales? Knowing my EU size ain't much good if ya compare with these sizes.

Unfortunately I don't even know of any sites that convert between US and US size scales! Heh -- seriously, I wear anywhere from a size 14 to a size 22 depending on the brand. So ... I am not much help there.

...

* Incidentally -- and this is very much not aimed at anyone in particular -- I'm not interested in getting into debates about the science of obesity and health. Suffice it to say that I've done my research and I'm satisfied with my decisions. And if you really want references, send me a message and I can put some together.

[Sarayana]

Here Saturo. (Google helped ) It looks fairly accurate to what I've experienced.

[Kamalia]

I've seen pictures of super skinny women, and oh my gosh you would've thought there had been a serious famine. When you can see bones jutting out of a girl's skin, that's the borderline of starvation. Not beauty.
Some of the comments I've read under online news reports about the fat issue made me downright furious. It pains me to see how shallow and ignorant people can be. It's depressing, really. When did body shape ever become such an issue anyway? Heck, larger women were the ones considered hot stuff! When was it that skinny became the norm? Of course, it's not just women who are subject to this kind of thing. Plenty of men are too. Everyone's a target to being judged by their weight. It's almost gotten to the point that being at home in your own body has become an achievement.

The problem is that the "beauty" ideal created through photoshop isn't realistically attainable.

That reminds me of this video. When I first saw it it sure opened my eyes. Makes me take another look at cosmetic and clothing billboards and ads, that's for sure.

[Sarayana]

Heck, larger women were the ones considered hot stuff! When was it that skinny became the norm?

Back when larger women were considered the most attractive, it had to do with wealth (they were rich so they didn't have to do physical labour and could afford rich diets). I'd argue that to some degree it still does today. The wealthiest people in our society today can afford personal trainers, personalised diets, the best ingredients and healthiest alternatives. Obesity is definitely a class-defined issue in Western society today.

The problem is that the "beauty" ideal created through photoshop isn't realistically attainable.

That reminds me of this video. When I first saw it it sure opened my eyes. Makes me take another look at cosmetic and clothing billboards and ads, that's for sure.

I love that video. It really is an eye opener, not just in terms of body size but also just reminding people of the immense amount of beauty products we buy to look like some fake ideal.

[Kamalia]

Heck, larger women were the ones considered hot stuff! When was it that skinny became the norm?

Back when larger women were considered the most attractive, it had to do with wealth (they were rich so they didn't have to do physical labour and could afford rich diets). I'd argue that to some degree it still does today. The wealthiest people in our society today can afford personal trainers, personalised diets, the best ingredients and healthiest alternatives. Obesity is definitely a class-defined issue in Western society today.

Huh. You've got a good point there. Strange how wealth can turn things around. I've been to organic grocery shops... the organic food is delicious and very healthy, but the prices aren't pretty.
"Whaaaaaaat?! Fifteen dollars for this little carton of strawberries?!"

[Teigan]

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[Ryno]

Foamy the squirrel talks good sense about weight... extreme amounts of swearing and such though, just youtube search him if you really are curious to his opinion.

[Rhyela]

My whole childhood growing up I witnessed the battles of my mother and grandmother with their weights. They would sort of compete to see who could become the thinnest, and this included starvation and diet pills. I was exposed to that for yeeears. When I was growing, like any normal child, I had a period of time where I had a little extra weight on me before the "growth spurt". But people in school or even my uncles would pick on me and call me fat (even though I wasn't), and it stuck with me. At one point I asked my mom if I was fat, and her reply was, "You know what to do about it". Well that sent me into a very unhealthy few years (all through high school) of of not eating and over-exercising. My lowest weight was I believe 103 lbs (maybe less because I had clothes on when I stepped on the scale), and I'm 5'4". So needless to say, I was way too thin. But I honestly believed I was still fat. I don't really remember what snapped me out of that, I think it may have been because a boyfriend at the time broke up with me so I started eating a little more. But I still didn't gain enough weight, I think I went up to about 115 and stayed there for a while. When I first started my new job at the company I work for, I had been gaining weight over the previous year or two (after getting married ), and was probably about 150 or 155. Well, once again, my mother (who I really do love, it's not her fault) and my grandmother started bringing up my weight as a problem. So, once again, I went out of control and lost a ton of weight again. I was eating half a protein bar for lunch, and the other half as a snack, with a frozen dinner at night, and that was it. In addition, I worked out heavily five days a week, both in our gym and because I used to do a lot of manual work (being in the mailroom, lifting 50-lb boxes, etc.). I dipped down to 110 lbs. Thankfully, once I got a position in another department, which was a desk job, I started putting on weight again. But again, at about 120 lbs I started to panic because I was gaining weight, but for some reason just didn't seem as motivated to lose weight. I'm now at about 150 or 155, between a size 12 and 14 (probably closer to 14 but some pants are 12, heck I have one pair of pants that are size 10 O.o ), and while I'm not happy necessarily (I would like to lose 10 to 20 lbs), I'm more comfortable with my weight. The reason is that I have to work way too hard to achieve a small, thin size. If I have to work out every single day and eat nothing more than protein bars, then that's not the weight my body wants me to be. And honestly, I truly believe my husband prefers me with more weight. He loves the thighs that I loathe, he likes my tummy, he likes that my chest is slightly bigger (I've always had a very small chest), and he loves my butt. So while I may not be in love with my current size, I'm much more accepting of it.

What's kind of sad is that I'm afraid to try to lose weight or start exercising seriously, because I become obsessed with the weight loss. Undereating is just as much of an addiction as overeating, and it literally frightens me. I don't want to become that skinny ever again but when I start losing weight, that obsession that I grew up with rears its ugly head and I go too far. /sigh It's something I may always struggle with.

Anyhow, thanks for bringing this up Teigan. Helps me to get that out sometimes.

[Sarayana]

I truly believe my husband prefers me with more weight. He loves the thighs that I loathe, he likes my tummy, he likes that my chest is slightly bigger (I've always had a very small chest), and he loves my butt.

This is a big reason why I no longer struggle with a negative body image. My husband and son, the only two men in whose eyes I want to measure up and be perfect, love me. It removes a lot of the pressure to live up to social norms and strangers' judgments. Words still sting, though.

I'm sorry you've had such a rough time with it Rhyela.

[Teigan]

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[Kira]

let's hear it for the combo of hypothyroidism and PCOS!

Oh wow I'm not alone. That stuff makes losing weight pure evil.

I've been a big girl all my life, except when I was a little kid and lived with my mother and grandparents. When we moved out we started to change our eating haibts and they just stuck. I was fine with everything and then I had the comment 'watch her jiggle while she runs' thrown at me...in grade three. Yeah, that was the start of me hating myself until I hit grade ten. At that point I just couldn't care anymore. I was in an all girls school at that time and, yeah, I was still laughed at a Lot, but I had friends with me all the time, and people that were bigger than I was were calling me fat.

I went through high school and honestly I didn't care that people made fun of me. I went with the motto 'If they have to make fun of me to feel better about themselves then I'll let them.' That got me through a lot, I can tell you that. Heck, I ever had some fun at my prom, though I think I look stupid in a dress. Up until about last year I was fine with everything.

Then I was told by my doctor..that I'm sick because I'm Fat. Yeah, I had a Doctor tell me that. He said that my PCOS would basically 'go away' if I lost all the weight. I cried myself to sleep for a few weeks. I also stopped eating, only having supper with my family, otherwise I'd stay in my room. Two months later and I just couldn't do it anymore. I was sick and felt like complete Crap, and to top it all off I gained more weight. So I started eating normally, and walking, and I lost that and a bit. I'm still working on it...

The fact that society is telling girls of Any age that in order to be sexy/attractive/whatever you have be skinny gets under my skin. Skinny women Scare me. I see ribs and I just want to vomit, it's not healthy. Or donate some of my own fluff (Joke between my mother and I) to them to get them to a point where they're elbow's wouln't take someone's eye out.

I wish that people would see the truth, that skinny is just unnatural. People that look like twigs shouldn't be praised (unless it's genetic and they can not help it) they should be sent to a doctor. This entire topic makes my skin crawl and makes me feel like I'm about to be sick.

[Epicfail]

I'm a big guy. 6.1 and 305. I was 225 in the 6th grade. Never really had a chance growing up, but I've gone up and down most of my life. My wife and stepdaughter struggle with me for the most part, but they know they are the gems of my life. Irreplacable regardless of circumstance.

I think its mostly our society's screwed up self-value system that is to blame for the issues. Endulge yourself, but not too much. Those who endulge too much, well, you may as well be carrying about a "Scarlet F". Its different for every time and society. The Turks like big girls and believe an overly doted upon wife or daughter should SHOW she's able to endulge. Those who are skinny are less valuable because they obviously can't afford the food. A couple hundred years ago, the "tan" look was because you worked in the field, so aristocracy was naturally pale and those who were tanned were considered "less". We as humans put value on things that are wanted by others and things that are useful to us. As our society progresses further along its current path, the further that "perfection" will move away from what is naturally healthy and obtainable without photoshop. Nothing good can come from this.

I read an article about the history of modelling that was passed around through my church that really opened my eyes to how completely pointless a 'skinny' model really is. Apparently, back in the day, models were bigger, healthy, full figured women. They weren't fat or skinny. They were average healthy active women. What went wrong? Apparently people were looking at the women more than the clothing, so the clothing wasn't selling as well. They actually started using "skinny" women because at the time they weren't seen as valuable and they made the perfect human "clothes hanger". Instead of having the intended effect, women started wanting to mimic the models so they would look as good as they perceived the women modeling the fashion were. In time, this created "the skinny look" and its progressed further over the decades leading up to our current mess.

Moral of the story: the current ideal body is half dead looking for a reason. Your unhappiness over your weight is self-driven because your current self-image is based on a lie. Knowing the truth, eat, run and play with the rest of God's children and quit obsessing over something that only matters to... people who obsess about it. Be healthy if you want to feel good, but never stop being you. Dwell on the awesomeness that is you and go out doing fun things you like. You'll eventually meet people who don't care about your beautiful size 20 butt and keep you around cause your awesome. If the wrong guy comes along and chooses another woman over you, be less unhappy and remember the right guy WON'T pass you by. I certainly didn't need my wife to be a size 4 for me to fall madly in love with her.

I looked past plenty of size 4s in my time because they didn't fit me. The right woman fit me. I married her a year from our first date. The much more "ideal" roommate I had at the time got into yet another year to two year long waste of time. Great guy, but he still thinks keeping a woman has something to do with being able to provide money, look a certain way and some of the other lies our society promotes. Truth is, no manner of looks, money or ability is necessary to keep the right one from getting away. When its right, the puzzle of "meeting the right person" just kinda comes together eerily like some cheezy chick-flick script.

I kinda wish women just went for comfortable more than looks when it comes to fashion. Women are so much more fun to do things with when they are surrounded by warm, fuzzy comfortable bliss.

[Sarayana]

let's hear it for the combo of hypothyroidism and PCOS!

Oh wow I'm not alone.

Me too. Well, I've got a devious version of thyroid disorder that switches between hypo- and hyper, so that adds a little spice to the mix. @_@ Funny thing is, when the doc told me I had PCOS I didn't even know what it is. Now I'm meeting women left, right and center that have it. There's just not enough talk about it.

[Teigan]

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