Thunderstomp, A Shadow Of It's Former Self

[Araniis]

Made this Post over at the WoW forums today to go and look at a problem that I've been experiencing with hunters lately. Not sure if it'll even be taken seriously or not, but knowing that we had a specials someone look at us for pet skins, I thought posting it here wouldn't be too bad an idea, at least to get this off my chest if nothing else. The thread itself can be found here at: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7593621538

So, it took till about halfway through patch 5.1, but I finally got around to playing my old hunter again. I used to be a true dedicated wielder of bow and gun, with my pet by my side, I’d do everything from extreme soloing, to taking down the toughest of raid bosses, and, of course, using my natural hunter skills to go and kite with the best of them. It was around the mid patch of Cataclysm, however, that I realized one small truth about WoW. If you’re not going to be in a guild that can help you into dungeons and the like, the chances of you becoming geared enough to do anything in WoW is slim to none as DPS. It was then that I had decided to die, serve the Lich King, and become the still near unkillable Blood Death Knight I am today.

But I digress. It was just a few weeks ago that I picked up my old hunter, filled with the memories and desires to play like I had used to, and even though Hunters had changed a lot since I’ve remembered them (Most changes for the better, mind you) and I quickly got back into the grove of shooting, kiting, and using my pet to tank things that would make other classes green with envy. That was… until I tried fighting multiple enemies at once…

At first, I thought that my hunter was just a little over geared, as she had one of the higher tier guns from the previous expansion at the time, so her auto attacks were hitting hard and critting even harder. I figured it was for this reason my pet couldn’t keep agro with thunder stomp. I quickly learned, however, that this wasn’t the case as even a simple Mend Pet, a spell to keep my very pet alive when it’s tanking near an immeasurable amount of enemies, have them turn around to decided they liked the juicy night elf in the background instead of the bloodthirsty raptor before them slamming his feet into the ground. And it wasn’t just a simple matter of gear, either. Even with simple grays, the end result of a pet trying to use Thunderstomp for threat alone resulted in either me having to pretend to die, to misdirect the enemies into thinking my Raptor is much scarier than it actually is, or to limit my work to a single foe at a time.

It wasn’t until last night, when a case of insomnia and a low level mage friend of mine decided to go, with my hunter of course, into Molten Core to solo it for S&G. It was there, when fooling around with my pets toolbars to make sure the all the abilities were set up correctly that I came across Thunderstomps tooltip. The tooltip read that, as always, it generated a moderate amount of threat. The damage on said skill, however, was perhaps the lowest I’ve ever seen a skill for a lv 90 character, that being about 750 points of damage. Now, things could have CLEARLY changed since the last time I’ve played a hunter, but I thought that one of the major things about any skill, even if it does have the tag of ‘Generates threat’ that it needs to do at least half decent chunk of damage to even put out said threat to keep the monsters one is fighting on the right target and not turning around to munch on those who are not wearing plate armor or magically boosted Leather. If things haven’t changed and that is still the case… then why does Thunderstomp doesn’t even hit the 800 damage mark to compare to the 4-5,000 damage auto attacks of a hunter?

“But you’re supposed to be using your Misdirect!” I hear some of you say. And true, I think Misdirect is a fine skill and one that should be used quite often… on a tank, in a raid, as was its original intent. But to use it for every single moment, for every single fight where I want to have my pets fight one or more creatures? Not only does it make things slow (for a class who already had to wait on their pet to go in, grab threat and then set up their debuffs before any real damage can be done) it also makes things rather unenjoyable when you realize your Midirect has worn off and you need to, yet again, cast it and spam your Multi-shot to even get half decent agro onto the foes you’re fighting, thus allowing you’re pet to tank for another half a minute before they’ll start chasing you again.

So what can be done? Well, I’ve a few ideas, and I can only hope that Blizzard listens, or at least takes a small gander at it all. It really depends on what they think of the whole situation and if they feel the change is needed.

My first real idea with Thunderstomp is to do the same thing to it as they did to Tanks in the middle of Cataclysm, increase the threat levels of the ability by a truck load. This would make Thunderstomp the AoE Threat it was meant to be for hunters, as well as allowing Blizzard to remove some of the threat power they pushed into Growl, which has become a bane to Tanks since Mists has been released. This, I think, would also probably the best and easiest idea, if only because Tenacity pets would never see the light of day in a raid or dungeon outside of quick summoning for adds or the like and thus would relieve many an issue among players.

My second idea is to give Tenacity pets a flat Threat buff. This is different from the first idea for instead of just making one ability getting better threat, it’s basically giving any Pet that specs tenacity their own Righteous Fury Buff. Everything from their growl, to their auto and basic attacks, to their special abilities would produce a great deal of threat, enough so that even if the enemies aren’t being damaged by them, they’re being told that the creature doing all these things is the most dangerous one to fight, and thus it must attack it. While I like this idea better than the first one, I considered it less realistic and thus lower on my idea list.

The third and final thing I think could be done with this, and this is the idea that goes with the possible thought of Blizzard wanting hunters to still use Misdirect to keep threat on pets, is to make it permanent. Now I don’t mean make it like that all the time and on tanks in a raid, but just hunters companions. Hell, it could even be a Glyph if you’d really want it to be something a hunter has to choose over something they just get naturally. But the end point is that when Misdirecting to the little pet through the spell, it doesn’t go away. Out of all the ideas, this is the one I dislike the most, if only because it doesn’t remove the fact that we still have to press more buttons and deal with a super slow start up to any fight, both factors I know Blizzard would like to actually lessen on hunters.

In the end, I’m just a lover of hunters and while I may not raid with my elf anymore, and my raptor has gotten a belly from too much eating and not enough running after screaming foes, I’d rather not see them have to deal with an issue that, in my eyes, is enough to cripple the class from doing things that could otherwise be extraordinary. I thank you for your time and for reading this out to the very end.

Araniis of Doomhammer.

[Equeon]

I completely agree. I have macroed target pet and misdirect to two buttons so it's a natural routine for me before every pull...
and yet, I shouldn't be forced to do this.

[Sar]

I just MD with the glyph.

/shrug

[peanutbuttercup]

If you're using thunderstomp to hold aggro on a group, no, it doesn't work very well, especially if you have Spirit Bond ticking all the time. Growl is the only real threat generator on a pet. It might seem annoying to use the misdirect glyph but that's pretty much exactly what it is for - your damage essentially becomes the pet's threat. And of course we also have FD, camoflague, shadowmeld, deterrance, traps. We have more ways of saving ourselves and controlling multiple targets than most classes.

Long story short, I'm not BM spec but I don't have any problems* keeping a group of enemies on my pet if that's what I want.

* (The exception is BC raid content (and I think LK too?) where pet threat is completely broken and I'm tanking everything with my face. THAT needs to be fixed for sure.)

[Araniis]

I just MD with the glyph.

/shrug

My whole point of this post was the fact that I don't think we should be forced to do it for every single time we're fighting enemies. To catch adds that appear when we're fighting something and our pet can't get there fast enough? Sure! To go and bring another group into the fight and make sure they're on your pet? Excellent! To have even the most basic agro on your pet when you're fighting more then one enemy? No, that's not how it should be done.

The whole point of the tenacity tree, and Thunderstomp itself, is to have that extra threat and survivability so that you're able to fight more then a single foe at one time without worry of them going on top of you. When you can't even heal or Auto attack without adding a Misdirect into the mix to ensure you're not getting clobbered, there's something very, very wrong here.

If you're using thunderstomp to hold aggro on a group, no, it doesn't work very well, especially if you have Spirit Bond ticking all the time. Growl is the only real threat generator on a pet. It might seem annoying to use the misdirect glyph but that's pretty much exactly what it is for - your damage essentially becomes the pet's threat. And of course we also have FD, camoflague, shadowmeld, deterrance, traps. We have more ways of saving ourselves and controlling multiple targets than most classes.

Long story short, I'm not BM spec but I don't have any problems* keeping a group of enemies on my pet if that's what I want.

* (The exception is BC raid content (and I think LK too?) where pet threat is completely broken and I'm tanking everything with my face. THAT needs to be fixed for sure.)

Thunderstomp, back when we first got it on Gorillas all those years ago, was more or less the equivalent of us hunters having a mini Paladin with us. He'd run in, Thunderstomp, and we'd never have to worry about agro again. It's partly this reason that the ability was nerfed, because EVERYONE was using Gorillas simply because of the increased viability of that one pet. Now, however? EVERY pet can get Thunderstomp if they wanted to. The problem is that they DON'T. As I stated before, outside of tanking old bosses that just hit really hard, there is no use or purpose in going into tenacity for pets, because Thunderstomp does nothing for threat (leaving you to have to use Misdirect) and since we currently ARE forced into using the spell that was originally meant for RAIDS, Misdirecting+Beast Cleave+Ferocity pets kill things faster anyway then having a Tenacity speced pet. This all results in us not wanting anything to do with turning our pets Tenacity and last I checked, Blizzard distinctly disliked it when they pidgenholded people into being all One spec or one pet. As we can see, we lost the Gorilladin and the 'Everyone is a wolf' aspects of our class, didn't we?

[Slapperfish]

(deleted)

[peanutbuttercup]

Thunderstomp, back when we first got it on Gorillas all those years ago, was more or less the equivalent of us hunters having a mini Paladin with us. He'd run in, Thunderstomp, and we'd never have to worry about agro again. It's partly this reason that the ability was nerfed, because EVERYONE was using Gorillas simply because of the increased viability of that one pet. Now, however? EVERY pet can get Thunderstomp if they wanted to. The problem is that they DON'T. As I stated before, outside of tanking old bosses that just hit really hard, there is no use or purpose in going into tenacity for pets, because Thunderstomp does nothing for threat (leaving you to have to use Misdirect) and since we currently ARE forced into using the spell that was originally meant for RAIDS, Misdirecting+Beast Cleave+Ferocity pets kill things faster anyway then having a Tenacity speced pet. This all results in us not wanting anything to do with turning our pets Tenacity and last I checked, Blizzard distinctly disliked it when they pidgenholded people into being all One spec or one pet. As we can see, we lost the Gorilladin and the 'Everyone is a wolf' aspects of our class, didn't we?

No, I never used a gorilla back in the day, so I cannot make comparisons. So if the point is just that it doesn't work as it used to, then you're right and I can't provide any useful commentary on that front.

I currently use tenacity on all of my pets as their main spec (only switching in raids, sometimes I forget, which makes for great boss pulls) mainly for the passive boosts to health and healing. And Last Stand is a real lifesaver sometimes, like against those lovely Jinyu rares. So while you may not find a use for it I can guarantee that there are others who aren't feeling pigeonholed into a ferocity spec all the time.

And even while keeping misdirect up all the time, I can pull about 77k dps with a tenacity pet on a single target in a suboptimal spec, with a mix of blues and epics. I don't think that's unacceptable. Sure I could probably squeeze out more dps without misdirect and with respeccing but I don't think that's necessary for most random world mobs or old bosses.

Personally, I'm grateful we have the option of being able to divert all our damage into threat with just a single button, but that's just me. Not sure what else I can say about it other than that?

[Zhinru]

AoE threat of our pets is definitely rather bad in MoP. Even misdirect does very little if you use any AoE attacks, so I found myself having to kill everything one by one. Even the tiny wasps during Cloud Serpent dailies, which is rather infuriating. If I fight two mobs, I can't even cast Mend Pet once, because the other mob will almost immediately go after me, Misdirection be damned. If I want to fight two mobs and mend the pet, I had to down one mob to about 50% and then switch - only then had the pet built up enough aggro to hold the mob despite mending.

Something definitely needs to be done.

[Gimlion]

I don't seem to have a problem holding aggro with Shale Spider on multiple targets. What I find best, is to randomly switch between the targets (if their bigger/higher in health) while killing them. If your pet is on assist, it will strike the new target, growl, and maybe get a TS in, generating enough threat to keep the mob occupied. Do this a few times, especially in conjunction with MS and Multi-Shot, and you should find the threat issues less common.

That said, I would definitely recommend a Ten. pet for anything you want to solo as far as raids old bosses or Rare Elites (Barring Pandaren Rares, who's pesky healing is too quick to be outdamaged by tenacity.) I have to cast MP way too often when using Loque compared to my Shale Spider, and the difference in damage is too minimal when compared to the difference in health, healing, survival and threat capabilities.

[Makoes]

Hmmm I haven't found any issues with my pets holding aggro, I treat my pet like its any other tank (ie making it switch targets every now and then) I don't pull off my pet at all, but that's maybe because I know what MD & intimidate are. I also know what my CC's are when I have more mobs than intended. Sure, if I am foolish enough to be FF something my pet isn't currently targeting, I might pull it off my pet (but hey, whats more dangerous the thing nomming on your buddy, or the thing poking holes in you with projectiles?) but switching my pet over to the target coming after me and using MD or Intimidate will easily put that target back on your pet. And if all else, I have something called FD, works wonders. Yes, thunderstomp does help keep things on your pet, but just remember, you and your pet are a unite, and if your not doing your job, then your partner cant do its job.

Just remember, your pet might be tenacity, and have thunderstomp, but it is not a player character, it operates off of an AI, and YOU need to take steps to tell it how to tank. If you are pulling off your pet, then you are not doing it right.

[Sukurachi]

I completely agree. I have macroed target pet and misdirect to two buttons so it's a natural routine for me before every pull...
and yet, I shouldn't be forced to do this.

E-Z Pet-MD Macro:
#showtooltip Misdirection
/cast [@pet] Misdirection
You can thank me later. :3

This is my Misdirection macro... goes a step further than yours, it's usable in a dungeon when you have a real tank:

#showtooltip (no need to put the name of the spell)
/use [@focus,exists,nodead][@pet] Misdirection

will cast Misdirection on your focus if you have one, if not, it will cast it on your pet.
you may thank me now

[Sar]

I use my perma-pet, my Quilen, in Ferocity spec and have no troubles. When soloing I leave Growl on, and I'm pulling upwards of 80k on a single target easy, bursting well over 100k at times with 474 gear. I use MD liberally when needed, but it's rarely needed after the first MD wears off.

If I'm soloing harder/AoE content, I'll whip out my Turtle and similarly no problems. I always have both in Assist stance. Never bother with Defensive stance, and only switch to passive when I need to pull my pet back to me (on Zorlok in HoF when running between platforms in 10 man, pets have a tendency to run ahead and get one shot).