Cunning pets and dps Q.

[zedxrgal]

Since I have the curse right now on my alt alliance hunter of seemingly not being able to be satisfied with the pets I had ............................. actually that's a bit of a fib. The short version is that as much as I loved Giggler the puppy love wore of quicker then I'd expected. I also just couldn't see having a second hyena. I'm to loyal to Snort and love him way to much so giggler came on the chopping block after having him like ................. a week I think.
I went on the search for Azzere. Ran around for an hour and saw nothing. So I go on the hunt for Hayoc who was more then easy to find. Released Giggler and made the tame.
Immediately queued the dungeon finder because Hayoc (I kept his given name) was five levels down. At first the relationship was a little touch and go. Wasn't sure if I was liking him. But he's really grown on me and he's gorgeous. Seem great in the dungeons and just questing with me.
So what my question is:
What's the dps of cunning pets???

Hayoc seemed to be pulling pretty good dps once up to my level and fully trained. I really like him and think he'll be sticking around a while if not permanently.
Here are some photos.

[Saturo]

Cunning pets are about the same in DPS as ferocity pets, but keepig them alive trough bosses AoE and such will be painful.

[VelkynKarma]

Yeah I find the DPS between cunning pets like my snake or ravager is roughly the same as my cat or carrion bird on Taigi...she's only 63, but I've had no problems.

I will mention that both serpent and ravager tend to take damage more easily though, and most of their abilities tend to focus on 'ocrap buttons' than maximizing dps. A lot of 'when your pet is under X amount of health his dps goes up more' sort of things, which is great for a boost, but they'll probably die shortly after if they're that far down.

Sometimes it's easier for me to pull threat off of my serpent too. Haven't had the ravager long enough to know for sure if it's the same with him.

Basically if you just keep an eye on them and keep their health bars topped up, it should still be fine, but you gotta be much more careful.

~VelkynKarma

[Anansi]

I find using a Cunning pet is a significant DPS loss. I can do short bursts of high DPS but that's through purely personal means with no pet contribution. For sustained DPS, the Cunning pets just don't have the same impact as a Ferocity pet, unfortunately.

Looking at talents like Wolverine Bite, Feeding Frenzy and Cornered you'd think the DPS during the sub 35% phases of fights would compensate but it really doesn't. These talents really work best in PVP, not PVE. In a raid situation, you will be losing a lot of pet-derived DPS for 65% of the fight, and even when it increases in the latter stages, it won't catch up and your lost DPS on the previous portion just means it took longer to get to 35% and under.

The only time I bring out a Cunning pet in a raid is when I use my Wind Serpent on Kinetic Bombs on the Blood Prince fight. I have NagoShango specced for Mobility and Boar's Speed to really quickly get to those bombs. But my DPS in that encounter is horrible. I'm sure I could just use my Wolf but honestly, I just love the chance to get out a different pet!

[Saturo]

You seem to forget their manaregen spell, which is REALLY useful on longer fights.

[Anansi]

It can be sorta. If you've got Replenishment in the raid it's a moot point more often than not though. If you don't have Replenishment then Roar of Recovery is a bit more useful, but the CD on it is way too long for it to provide and sustainable boost and won't keep you out of Viper for any appreciably less of a duration. Again, Cunning show their strengths in burst situations which benefits PVP more. In PVP Roar of Recovery is a godsend for sure.

[Calgary]

I've directly compared level 80 pets against eachother, attacking test dummies on their own, etc. Devilsaurs, wasps, wolves, sporebats, windserpents, spirit beasts, silithids, etc.

It depends heavily on whether or not you consider 400-800 DPS loss to be significant at TOTC-level gear; the gap may become even larger as you gain ICC gear. This is unbuffed test dummy DPS, in actual raids the gap grows to over 1k DPS between a ferocity pet with a damaging special and any Cunning pet.

From a raw DPS standpoint, no cunning pet will ever equal the DPS of a ferocity pet, and the gap is very significant.

Which makes me angry, as I love silithids and hate devilsaurs, but I can't justify bringing anything but a devilsaur when our combined DPS is so much higher than any other pet/hunter combo I've tried - including the much-vaunted wolf. I'd kill to be able to raid with my silithid and not be doing a lot less DPS than I could be.

[Rhyela]

As much as I was hesitant about the idea initially, I do feel that being able to spec your pet how you want would be really great. I would love to bring a wind serpent with me, but the fact that they're Cunning just kind of poos on my parade. I love silithids too (/sniff...I miss you Surge!), and plenty of the other Cunning pets, and it seems such a shame that I don't like their talent trees all that much.

[Slickrock]

Remember, you have 5 slots, and you really only need to worry about max dps with one pet for raiding. When you are raiding, you are doing a diservice to the rest of the raid not to do the best dps for your spec, so bring a trex or wolf to raids.

That being said, you have 4 other slots to use for the rest of the time. Tame what you like for those slots!

Also, pvp pets with roots are also nice for soloing mobs that tend to charge you or run away. You don't need the uber dps for those situations, and the cunning pets are much closer in dps when you don't have all the scaling raid buffs.

But yes, for raiding, Trex or wolf. Outside of that, whatever you please...

[FuzzyDolly]

Remember, you have 5 slots, and you really only need to worry about max dps with one pet for raiding. When you are raiding, you are doing a diservice to the rest of the raid not to do the best dps for your spec, so bring a trex or wolf to raids.

So... what you're saying is that because I'm missing a gem in my chest piece and I'm only in 232 gear, I'm doing a diservice to a raid group? That's not best dps for my spec. This is a game. It should be played for fun. If fun for you is worrying about 1dps, then enjoy. For me it's not. It's about enjoying my WoW experience, and until you or someone else starts paying my $15 a month, I'll raid with Aotona or one of my Spirit Pets. If people don't like it then they should drop group and find other cookie cutter hunters to raid with.

[Saturo]

I have to agree. I'm a theorycrafter, and guess what... Sometimes I raid with Gondria. Am I doing a disservice? No, because if I'm not in the mood for my MM-spec, my DPS is better in my BM-spec. So long as you pull your weight, those fifty DPS don't matter. At all. Now, if I see someone in ICC25 with a turtle, I might complain, but seriously, that little Howl-buff doesn't matter much. At all. If your raid wipes and you didn't have a wolf at the time, that's not the cause. The cause is bigger in that case. 50 DPS is nothing. That little AP bonus is quickly outweighed by, say, YOU DOING WHAT FEELS RIGHT. If you're not in your favorite spec, your DPS can and will plummet.

[kairii]

idk i think all pets have a basic base dps which they can all pull then there abilty and talents will boost it

and you can 'diservice' a raid group its a game yeah you may like being top dps but tbh even without a pet MM and SV can still do that BM are the only ones who really need their pets
how do i know?
11k - MM - no pet .... it died at the start of the fight ... i dunno why the tank didnt have the arggo but hey
6k - BM - no pet .... i forgot it died xD but was still proud of my 6k! even if i normally pull 8-9k ... i dred to see my dps if i actully took the game a lil big more ... serious xD (yes i am that person who will auto shot in a raid while i watch tv)

atm im installing the game i MAY! ditch one of my spirit babies ... and go about catching pets and testing them out ... again may ... i love my babies to much to do that
then again just /ninja my boyfriends hunter hes got a wolf thats easy to get again (and its lv 80 to start with to o.O)

edit: i remeber why i go off teh base dps idea!

As of 3.1, all the pet trees were modified. Now, Tenacity, Cunning, and Ferocity pets all have the same damage modifiers, and the only difference between them Is each pet’s family move and the talent trees inherent to the families in question.

[Azunara]

I'm not sure if this helps much. My little blood elf hunter is leveling with her dragonhawk since 10. She's 29 now, and she'll go with Phoenix till 80, likely. Yeas, you need to watch their health. Phoenix has days of squish and not squish, but he's pretty powerful. Things die fast with him. I call him my little fire mage. >.> Squishy but packs a punch.

The one time I did Gnomer I was in last, but that's cause I was keeping an eye out for sentries and not really paying attention. I've done Gnomer, oh say, TWICE so...

[Anansi]

So... what you're saying is that because I'm missing a gem in my chest piece and I'm only in 232 gear, I'm doing a diservice to a raid group? That's not best dps for my spec. This is a game. It should be played for fun. If fun for you is worrying about 1dps, then enjoy. For me it's not. It's about enjoying my WoW experience, and until you or someone else starts paying my $15 a month, I'll raid with Aotona or one of my Spirit Pets. If people don't like it then they should drop group and find other cookie cutter hunters to raid with.

Well, a raid is a co-operative endeavour which relies on each person to bring their best performance (it may be your $15/month but it's the raid's $135/month and they want the most success out of that). 232 gear is fine if that's the best you have but you really should get that socket filled with a gem. When your raid looks at you and sees an empty gem slot, the message is that you're lazy and don't put the effort into your character which is not going to fill them with encouragement for your raid performance. Also, if I saw that in a raid I would honestly disqualify that person for loot eligibility as the message is "I don't care enough about my performance to bother", so why would you get a piece of loot over someone else who puts in the effort? That's what empty sockets say in a raid.
So get a gem! Is this character with the empty socket the one you've got on Baelgun? If so, hit me up and I'll cut you a gem for your chest, free of charge. I think I've got some gems kicking around too.

As for pets in raids, I really don't care what pets people bring. Honestly, I love seeing different pets out. I like the variety and I'm always curious to see the results of non-optimal pets on the Hunter's DPS. If you want to bring something other than a Wolf or Devilsaur, by all means do it. Choice of pet says a lot less than poorly tended gear.

By way of example, I was in an ICC 10 pug with my Shaman the other day. There was a Hunter with a Raptor and I thought "Oh cool!" and I went over and /pat the Raptor. Then I check the Hunter's gear, and he's got half PVP gear, an ungemmed cloak, a sword with Expertise, is using Shard of the Crystal Heart trinket.... And I think "oh no". The Hunter ends up doing not much more DPS than the tank, and we had to call it after killing Saurfang because we didn't have the DPS to move on to the Plagueworks or Crimson Halls. We also had a really bad Mage who I was rezzing after every fight, and his DPS was a bit above the Hunter's.

So those two were doing a disservice to the raid by not being on top of things.

[Tahlian]

Also bear in mind, Blizzard has said something about the wind serpent family getting a particular debuff of some flavor or other in Cataclysm that's going to be quite useful. If nothing else, hang on to your scaly buddy till then - that debuff they're supposed to be getting might wind up being really, really good to have him for.

[Anansi]

Yeah I think it will increase the spell damage of the raid or something like that. Blizzard are moving to make pets buff/debuff batteries more than a personal DPS tool in Cataclysm.

[Rhyela]

So... what you're saying is that because I'm missing a gem in my chest piece and I'm only in 232 gear, I'm doing a diservice to a raid group? That's not best dps for my spec. This is a game. It should be played for fun. If fun for you is worrying about 1dps, then enjoy. For me it's not. It's about enjoying my WoW experience, and until you or someone else starts paying my $15 a month, I'll raid with Aotona or one of my Spirit Pets. If people don't like it then they should drop group and find other cookie cutter hunters to raid with.

Well, a raid is a co-operative endeavour which relies on each person to bring their best performance (it may be your $15/month but it's the raid's $135/month and they want the most success out of that). 232 gear is fine if that's the best you have but you really should get that socket filled with a gem. When your raid looks at you and sees an empty gem slot, the message is that you're lazy and don't put the effort into your character which is not going to fill them with encouragement for your raid performance. Also, if I saw that in a raid I would honestly disqualify that person for loot eligibility as the message is "I don't care enough about my performance to bother", so why would you get a piece of loot over someone else who puts in the effort? That's what empty sockets say in a raid.
So get a gem! Is this character with the empty socket the one you've got on Baelgun? If so, hit me up and I'll cut you a gem for your chest, free of charge. I think I've got some gems kicking around too.

As for pets in raids, I really don't care what pets people bring. Honestly, I love seeing different pets out. I like the variety and I'm always curious to see the results of non-optimal pets on the Hunter's DPS. If you want to bring something other than a Wolf or Devilsaur, by all means do it. Choice of pet says a lot less than poorly tended gear.

By way of example, I was in an ICC 10 pug with my Shaman the other day. There was a Hunter with a Raptor and I thought "Oh cool!" and I went over and /pat the Raptor. Then I check the Hunter's gear, and he's got half PVP gear, an ungemmed cloak, a sword with Expertise, is using Shard of the Crystal Heart trinket.... And I think "oh no". The Hunter ends up doing not much more DPS than the tank, and we had to call it after killing Saurfang because we didn't have the DPS to move on to the Plagueworks or Crimson Halls. We also had a really bad Mage who I was rezzing after every fight, and his DPS was a bit above the Hunter's.

So those two were doing a disservice to the raid by not being on top of things.

Well said. I agree with the gear/gem part. For whatever reason I have a hard time making money in this game, probably because my gathering profession is a little behind. But if I can't afford an epic gem, I'll at least get a blue gem. If I can't afford the most expensive enchants, I get the next best thing. I do what I can, but I certainly don't do nothing (double negative ftw!).

As far as pets go, I really don't feel that bringing a different pet is a disservice. There's not much of a dps difference between one and the other, unless we're talking about a devilsaur vs. a crocolisk. Plus, some people are geared/specced differently and simply play better with other pets. There's someone on here who said he performs better with a wasp. So is he doing a disservice by not bringing a wolf? No, not for him.

I get pretty defensive when people start nitpicking like that. I had a hunter in an ICC25 pug whisper me last night, "you should think about speccing SV/MM, no?". So I replied, "No, I'm doing fine". And I was. On many fights I outperformed or at least performed equally to the better geared MM and SV hunters in the group. One of them had a GS of 6000 compared to my measly 5200 or 5300 or whatever it is right now. I'm sure people thought I was a joke trotting in there with my lower GS and lesser spec, but I proved that you don't have to conform to perform. And I'm really not trying to brag, but I was honestly proud of myself. I put everything into my game and do the very best I can, but I really don't like when people look down on me for the choices I make. If I can still do my best without being like the rest, then what's wrong with that?

[zedxrgal]

I agree with you Rhyela.

I in no way believe that a hunter is only as good as their pet. For me it's my pet is only as good as me. (hope that's coming out right). My pet only does the damage it does or doesn't do based on not just it's specs but my own. I feel they draw most of it from me. So regardless of what pet I bring if my dps is horrible my pet's sure isn't going to be anything to scream at. I'm not choosy about which pet is brought into a dungeon. I honestly don't care what the group thinks. I know that I will give every group my all and fight to the death, or FD, to ensure we survive and complete. If that means having a wolf, boar or whatever then that's what it means. Why should my damage and acceptance only be defined by my pet?
I feel that I've been a bit lucky to only encounter the wolf only people a few times. I would never enter a dungeon on the premise that I won't be of good service.

I think I'm rambling.

I am keeping my little wind serpent for now and seeing how it goes. He pulls better then expected dps. My stable slots are still very full and at this point he's the only one I'd be willing to release if something I cannot live without came along. Again. I also am not hight enough level on this alt hunter to be full BM spec. So I have to wet my appetite for now with what I've got.

[FuzzyDolly]

Sometimes you spend all your money on the item, and the gems have to wait. I'll happily socket it today if you mail me a meta gem. lol I'm also trying to save up $10k gold to get 2 toons epic flight. Seriously tho, I only play maybe 10 hours a week. I'm a baker that works swing shifts and I have a 2 year old at home. My guild is fine with me not having the meta gem because they know as soon as I can afford it, I will get it. I also understand it's the raid's $135 a month. They are free to run with whatever classes, specs and gear they deem fit. But for me, I'll run with like minded players. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that hard core raiders don't find what they do fun, but I don't. The game should not be a chore. I have enough of those at work. I'd rather run with under geared toons that are trying their hardest than toons that are all geared and worried about me being 1/2 second late firing off a sting.