Armor penetration

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Anansi
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Re: Armor penetration

Unread post by Anansi »

Danielfboone wrote: I don't think they overstate it at all. A certain amount of haste is good, especially for MM and SV. BM doesn't really need any extra haste but it still will boost your dps, just not as much as for the other 2 specs. Hunters can easily go overboard with it but If you just take what you get from gear, it's fine. I have known some Hunters who would never use a piece that has haste on it and that's just stupid. As I said, I use the spreadsheet to make my gear decisions and whatever piece it says is the best upgrade in a particular slot is the one I go for, regardless of the distribution of stats. The people who make the sheet know far more about the math than I will ever know and trying to judge gear just by looking at it's stats is an exercise in futility.
The spreadsheets DO overvalue Haste, the authors themselves admit it and the theorycrafting communities like Elitist Jerks confirm it. This is because the way spreadsheets model damage and the assumptions the calculations must make on the nature of the fight. Spreadsheet figures are calculated on a fight where there is ZERO movement on your part, you can just stand and shoot with maximum efficiency and zero latency and lag, no interruptions of any sort.
In this case, Haste is attractive because your Steady Shots and AutoShots are firing much quicker and you are not switching targets. Obviously, real in-game fights are not like this at all, so the effective value of Haste is radically diminished.
Some Haste is useful but between talents and CDs Hunter can radically boost their Haste when it's needed most. Haste is pretty useless when you're moving but great when you want to unload (which is why it's good to use Speed Potions on burn moments), so it's not good to waste stats. Plus, because Hunters can effectively boost their Haste, they can end up with excess Haste so it's again a waste.
Judging gear by looking at it's stats is not an exercise in futility, you just need to know what you're looking at and what you need. There's a handy add-on called Pawn, which, when you fill in (and maintain) your stat weight numbers, which can be found on the spreadsheet, it calculates an item's value so an item with a higher Pawn value than a current item will be an upgrade. You can also use the RatingBuster addon which is good too though not as in-depth.
Sometimes, just the right amount of haste will smooth out your shot rotation and therefore increase dps as well. The spreadsheet automatically refigures your shot rotation and timings for each change you plug in to your current gear set as well as refiguring the effects of the changes in all of the other stats.
Well what Haste can do for your rotation is allow an extra Steady Shot, but it has no bearing on the GCD of your other main shots. It will not diminish the CD of a shot, only glyphs can do that.
ArP is a good stat but it is a better thing for melee classes than for Hunters of any spec. By all means, take what you can get but I personally would not recommend stacking it to the exclusion of Agility.
No of course you don't stack it to the exclusion of Agility. The only time you would do that is if you need just a few more points to reach the ArPen hard cap, but even then it's not worth swapping out all or even the majority of your AGI for ArPen.
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Danielfboone
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Re: Armor penetration

Unread post by Danielfboone »

Yes it's true that the Spreadsheet is based on a fight like Patchwerk where no movement is required. It also averages out all procs and crits to their optimum chance of happening. Of course we very rarely see that in real fights which is why actually doing 70% of what the sheet predicts is doing pretty good. Having said all that, I still find it an invaluable tool for making gear decisions. I still say that unless you are a mathmetical genius who can work all the permutations of Hunter dps out in your head by just looking at the stats on a piece of gear, trying to make an informed decision without some kind of tool IS an exercise in futility. You basically confirmed that by suggesting using other tools than the Spreadsheet.

All I am basically saying is that haste is greatly undervalued by the Hunter community in general and ArP is overvalued. The 2 best stats are and have always been, total ranged attack power and total crit rating. In my opinion, those are the things a Hunter should try to maximize (after ensuring they are hit capped) and anything else you happen to get like ArP or to a lesser degree, haste, is just gravy.
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Danielfboone
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Re: Armor penetration

Unread post by Danielfboone »

Anansi wrote:
Danielfboone wrote:
Sometimes, just the right amount of haste will smooth out your shot rotation and therefore increase dps as well. The spreadsheet automatically refigures your shot rotation and timings for each change you plug in to your current gear set as well as refiguring the effects of the changes in all of the other stats.
Well what Haste can do for your rotation is allow an extra Steady Shot, but it has no bearing on the GCD of your other main shots. It will not diminish the CD of a shot, only glyphs can do that.
It can also make up for the difference in your shot rotation caused by equipping a slower weapon that the one you were using previously. Like going from a 2.8 speed one to a 3.0 speed one. It might allow for an extra auto shot to fire or as you said maybe even a Steady.
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