Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements (You won't like this)

[Adam-Savage]

Cataclysm will change a couple of things to the raiding system apparently. "Too long didn't read" version:

* 10-Man and 25-Man raids will share the same lockout.
* 10-Man and 25-Man raids difficulty will be as close as possible to each other.
* 10-Man and 25-Man raids will drop the exact same loot, but 25-man will drop a higher quantity of items.
* Normal versus Heroic mode will be chosen on a per-boss basis in Cataclysm raids, the same way it works in Icecrown Citadel
* For the first few raid tiers, our plan is to provide multiple smaller raids. Instead of one raid with eleven bosses, you might have a five-boss raid as well as a six-boss raid.

The Source

[Vephriel]

Really? I love the idea of it. As someone who could probably never dedicate the time required for a 25 man raiding guild, this opens up new opportunities for close-knit friends and smaller communities to raid together without the the stress of large scale guilds, while at the same time not losing out on the rewards in the end.

[Gala]

wrong. totally excited. ive wanted to start my own 10man guild with my close friends for a long time, but i didnt want sub-par loot.

this is great news for me.

[Saturo]

NOOOOOO!

I am so NOT excited over the changes to lockouts.
This just sucks.

[Rhyela]

Sounds good to me! I don't like the current system the way it is. I have a much easier time finding a guild of 10 well-skilled players than 25. I feel we deserve the same loot if we work just as hard. And I don't mind if more of it drops in 25, that's a fine reward. But I do feel that smaller guilds don't get rewarded as much as the 25's. I know that 25's take more work and coordination but for those of us who have difficulty finding such guilds, or prefer the atmosphere of smaller guilds (me falling under the latter), this change is great!

[Nevar]

I agree, I quite like the new system - maybe not the same lockout BUT its a small price to pay I think, and I do more so enjoy raiding with 10 people over 25 - you get to know each other a lot better and just have generally more fun imo

[Jakkra]

This sounds wonderful for my guild. We're very tight knit, and know each other in real life (or if we met through wow, we've exchanged phone numbers and facebook's and all that.), so basically we're all good friends. That being said, there's only enough of us to put together 10 mans, leaving 25 mans up to pugging.... so, it's nice to know that we can still compete with the big guilds.

The only downside to this (for me, at least) would be the extra emblems you receive each week for doing both 10 and 25 man versions.

[Rhyela]

The only downside to this (for me, at least) would be the extra emblems you receive each week for doing both 10 and 25 man versions.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed the the gear gap won't be so enormous in Cataclysm that having the latest badge gear as soon as it is released will be the only way to progress. Maybe I'm just complaining, but it's a bit ridiculous that I had really good gear when I took a break for about three months, came back and it was like I had just graduated kindergarten. I miss the day of vanilla WoW when yeah, having better gear helped you out, but you weren't crippled if you didn't have it.

[Jakkra]

Yeah, I hear you, Rhyela. Tier 10 set bonuses seem to make or break you for some classes. And if you don't run ICC, it takes a whiiiiile for those frost emblems to build up. Gear has been pretty easy to get lately, though.

Aside from set bonuses, though, the stats are so similar between, say, item level 226 and item level 232 gear- and then it just comes down to GS for getting into pugs... buuut, I'll stop derailing this thread right there.

Anyway, looking forward to this change, in hopes that my little guild won't get left behind with all the guild progression incentives being added.

[Wassa]

Well, there goes all hope of any other 25 man raiding guilds on Wyrmrest Accord. =( Would be nice to have some competition on my server.

Sucks with the shared lockouts, as we will be missing out on extra badges and loot, but if they make both versions drop the same loot, guess it isn't too big of a deal.

[Chrizesu]

Sucks with the shared lockouts, as we will be missing out on extra badges and loot, but if they make both versions drop the same loot, guess it isn't too big of a deal.

Now where am I going to find my extra badges? *sigh*

[Rhyela]

That's my point - maybe badges won't be as necessary in the expansion? Or, perhaps it will take fewer per piece of armor? I don't think they're out to seriously gimp everyone or make them angry. I'm sure we'll get compensated somehow, and they just haven't explained it yet. I wouldn't worry too much just yet.

[Anansi]

Why wouldn't I like this change? I've been wanting this for the past year! I'm utterly thrilled. I love 10 man raids, but hate 25s, I only do 25 for the loot and guild progression. If I can accomplish the former in 10s, that trumps the latter to be honest.

It's such a welcome, wanted change. So glad to see it!

[Kastarakovski]

Considering I'm no longer in a raiding guild, I'm going to sit back and watch the flames wreak havoc on my ex-guild. This decision by Blizzard will more than likely serve to be the final thing that rips Indifferent apart, seeing as there's already a major kerfuffle going on about the make-up of their 10-man groupings *readies marshmallows*

With that said though, it'll finally give Kas a chance to get some proper gear...those GS-crazy morons permitting of course.

[Sigrah]

I hate this change. A change like this will ultimately take away most of the incentives for larger guilds to raid at the 25 man level. Part of the fun of doing 25 mans is the challenges that go with them (which Blizzard is going to change to be in line with 10 mans), the better loot (which Blizzard is taking away), and the prestige of being able to do them (which most people are going to call arrogant/elitist, but honestly, that's important to some people). The only incentive left is the chance to gear up quicker, but unless 25 mans drop 3+ items for every 1 that drops in 10 mans, raiding in 25 mans will actually be slower gearing up wise.

On the bottom side, those who PUG raids a lot will probably see fewer opportunities since people that might run 25 man PUGs will be locked out after doing 10 mans in their guild runs, or vice-versa. And I expect there will be quite a bit of down time now at level 85 with 10s and 25s sharing lockout timers.

In all, I really don't like the change they plan on making with raids. I feel like they are taking away a lot of the challenges and incentives that drive me towards raiding in the first place. I guess we'll just have to wait and see what happens. I just hope they don't take the same attitude when it comes to normal vs. heroic dungeons.

[Gimlion]

I have one major problem with this change, and that is: Buffs, and Group make up... If you can supposedly get the same Gear Level in 10 mans as 25 mans, then there are two sides: Never work in 10 mans, we can get the buffs and make it easier on ourselves in 25mans. And: Never work in 25 mans, we can get 10(15?) core raiders who make up the progression group, gear them up fast and efficiently, while keeping a few others closely geared to fill/swap out for certain roles needed/buffs needed. We'll have to optimize our buffs, which means several roles/toons/specs might and will be sat if needed.

Of course there will always be casual raiders, and people who do it for fun, or not at all, but it sounds to me like this change might bring more grief to the already bias and VERY elitist/picky/snobbish world of Raiding.

[Palladiamorsdeus]

Keep in mind that you will get MORE drops and MORE emblems per boss. For those worried about the current level of emblems should keep in mind that most likely, you'll get as many or MORE emblems for doing 25 mans in Cataclysm, and that'll be for just running the 25 man once, as opposed to one twenty five and one ten.

The gating is absolutely neccesary to prevent 25 mans from benefitting both from the increased drop rate of their level, and still getting all the gear from the 10 mans. The general idea seems to be to allow smaller 10 man's to still be competitive with the 25 mans IF they are skilled enough to pass the content without overgearing it when it first releases.

Twenty five mans will STILL be rewarded for doing things with larger numbers, just not with superior gear. They'll be able to gear up faster then ten mans, both through gear and through drops. This is NOT the end of the world, as so many raiders are swearing, it'll just allow people to play the way they enjoy playing, instead of being forced into 25 man raids that they may not enjoy just to get cutting edge gear.

[Anansi]

I have one major problem with this change, and that is: Buffs, and Group make up... If you can supposedly get the same Gear Level in 10 mans as 25 mans, then there are two sides: Never work in 10 mans, we can get the buffs and make it easier on ourselves in 25mans. And: Never work in 25 mans, we can get 10(15?) core raiders who make up the progression group, gear them up fast and efficiently, while keeping a few others closely geared to fill/swap out for certain roles needed/buffs needed. We'll have to optimize our buffs, which means several roles/toons/specs might and will be sat if needed.

Of course there will always be casual raiders, and people who do it for fun, or not at all, but it sounds to me like this change might bring more grief to the already bias and VERY elitist/picky/snobbish world of Raiding.

10 mans will be challenging to put together in terms of class balance, yes. But they way I see it, your guild can have a few regular, carefully assembled 10s that would raid together every time. The raid leader would assemble what they feel to be the best class combo set for abilities, buffs and roles. Blizzard is clearly designing raids with dual specs in mind now, and to that end I feel it behooves hybrid classes to be able to perform multiple roles as per their class. In the new raid structure, this will be very important.
25 man raids will, as pointed out, drop more of everything to accommodate more players, and give that bigger, greater sense of challenge and group coordination for people that love that setting, and of course there will be 10 and 25 man achievements.
Really, the change means making raiding more fun for everyone that enjoys it as they can pursue the raid style most to their liking. I do not believe this will mean the death of 25 man raiding by any stretch of the imagination, but it does mean that people who do not like 25 man raiding do not have to do it because of the loot.

Also keep in mind that this dovetails with the new guild leveling system, so a change like this is more incentive for guilds to always raid as a guild, and not pug (either via bringing in pugs to fill up a 25, or you do your guild 25 and then people pug out to do 10s on off-nights). I'd be willing to bet that the 25 man raiding guilds might get some better guild leveling perqs, abilities and so forth.

If anything, I see this streamlining the raid and guild environment.

[Sharilar]

Why wouldn't I like this change? I've been wanting this for the past year! I'm utterly thrilled. I love 10 man raids, but hate 25s, I only do 25 for the loot and guild progression. If I can accomplish the former in 10s, that trumps the latter to be honest.

It's such a welcome, wanted change. So glad to see it!

This. If I didn't have to run ICC 25s for gear currently, I know I wouldn't be doing it. It also means it'll be a while longer to gear up, so content will last longer. If I want to raid on off nights, that's what my several alts are for!

[Sarayana]

The only downside to this (for me, at least) would be the extra emblems you receive each week for doing both 10 and 25 man versions.

They are changing the emblem system too.

Adam: I like the changes. I think they're making raiding more and more flexible, which is great.