*Spoilers* Sylvanas in Catacylsm

[Rawr]

Wow Garrosh is a dick, after this and the trolls he needs to be shot, or stabbed or pushed down the UC elevator, can't tell u how many times that killed me because of auto walk.

[Vephriel]

I have such a crush on Sylvanas. Her and Koltira Deathweaver

Oooh I hear ya Mania.

[Anansi]

Anyway! Ideally Sylvanas would recruit living people who wanted to be raised after their death into a type of earthly immortality. I suspect that she would be just as hated if she did, though, and her people would still die off. She's in a tough spot ... but nothing really justifies raising unwilling dead.

I think Sylvanas and the Forsaken are a lot more pragmatic than that though. A dead body is dead, useless, the original inhabitant isn't using it anymore, so why let a perfectly good corpse go to waste?

She's not going to bother with taking sign ups, it's not practical. And Sylvanas is very practical.

Besides, there are some great comedy opportunities with new Forsaken wandering around UC. The Forsaken may have abandoned their morality with their mortality, but they have a wicked sense of humour!

[Rhyela]

I despise her - There is NO difference between her and the Lich King now - NONE what so ever, she is damning souls to an existence they do not choose simply because she needs numbers, that is by NO means right. Shes a banshee they specialize in controlling people - shes a kingpin she wants an army and she'll have it. Her people may have an honor but her last shred fell when she died I believe she has none now and very few things can change my view of her.

There is a big difference between Sylvanas and the Lich King. The Lich King raised legions of undead as mindless Scourge, under his total command and bent utterly to his will. He used those Scourge as meat grinder fodder troops for mass destruction in a plan to over-run Azeroth.

Sylvanas has found control of that power, but is using it to essentially mimic procreation amongst the Forsaken. She is not raising massive armies with a mind bent to global domination and annihilation. Sylvanas is very keenly aware of the powers of the Lich King and the implications thereof, and she is far too shrewd to let history repeat itself. And as she says in that exchange, she serves the Horde. She does not want an army, she wants the Forsaken to endure, there's a big difference (unless you think people have children specifically to become soldiers in an army) between the two. The Forsaken have full control of their wills and have always been free to do as they please. Very few Forsaken have expressed regret at being what they are, only for how they are perceived. You cannot say she is damning anyone, as when a being dies, they do not choose what happens to them. Theologically speaking, they choose while alive, not after death.

Now, what forces will be put upon her, both from without and within to abuse that power remain to be seen. Will Garrosh consider this power Sylvanas controls an army-maker? Will those from her own faction attempt to apply pressure to bend her to their desires? Will she fight a battle with herself? All this remains to be seen and there are many possible outcomes.

Wow, very well said. I'm still ok with what Sylvanas is doing, because Forsaken =/= Scourge. And I also don't believe that these Forsaken have souls. I don't remember all the NPC names, but there are several occasions and quests where a Forsaken remembers their past live, but there is no emotion attached to it at all.

I understand what Nevar is saying, maybe those dead people would have just rather stayed dead. But on the same hand, I think that once they've been brought back, they don't desire that "peace of the grave" any more. In life, they may have been noble and upright, but in undeath, they're a completely different being and I don't think they miss their past life. I don't think they long for the life they once had, or the people they were with. It's like that one person becomes two entities. I honestly feel that the risen Forsaken don't regret being brought back. They're not all, "Whyyyy Sylvanas, whyyyy?!?!?!". They accept it, embrace it in their own twisted way, and move on.

[Rottingham]

I love the thought of what Sylvanas is doing! More Forskaen = undead hunters. Undead hunters = More fun. More fun = More excellence!

[Palladiamorsdeus]

Many of the other races (mainly the tauren) pity the Forsaken and a number of Horde healers all over Azeroth, such as Mani Winterhoof, work tirelessly in the hopes of creating a cure for undeath. Some of the Forsaken feel that their undeath is an illness or curse and long for a cure, but many think it is impossible. There is one case of a sentient undead (High Inquisitor Fairbanks) being restored to life, albeit by unrelated reasons.

Forsaken with an undead soul can be brought back with raise dead and reincarnate. The spells work normally on them. Resurrection, true resurrection and similar effects restore them to their undead life rather than to the being they were before they became undead. A Forsaken's body of this type is undead… and so is its soul, corrupted and changed to such a degree that it belongs to its new body now, rather than its old one.[22] Forsaken priests have the power to restore those foolishly slain in battle, though only to unlife. Nothing short of a miracle can return true life.[23]

From http://www.wowwiki.com/Forsaken . The Forsaken HAVE souls, and Sylvanas as a banshee existed as ONLY a spirit, which can be argued is nothing BUT a soul. NOTHING make's bringing a person back from the dead okay. Sylvanas was NOT okay with it, and very few others are, barring the original death knights and some other unique individuals as Saturo pointed out. That is NOT a good act under ANY circumstances, and no amount of rationalization or like for a character can or will change that.

[Saturo]

I hadn't read that article. My point was, necromancy centers around reviving people without putting the soul back, unlike resurrection. Therefore, the undead raised by necromancy are soulless. I didn't thinkabout the fact that most Forsaken were raised by the plague.

My mistake, sorry.

[Dulanie]

undead vs werewolf 2 strong and viralent "curses" It will be interesting to see if the Worgen are even able to be effected by the scourge plague, and if the forsaken can be effected by the worgen plague or if they cancel each other out. This is probably the main issue as to why the forsaken took such heavy losses when attacking Gilnais. hmmm I wonder if a forsaken that is bitten would die because of the werewolf virus?

[Anansi]

You have to consider Sylvanas' position as well. She is the leader of the Forsaken and they are her responsibility. As leader, she has a considerable amount of power in the Horde and with that power comes entitlement, prestige and clout. She's not about to let that slip away just because her people cannot procreate, she has to do something to keep her power and position as well as take care of her subjects.

Like I said before, Sylvanas is practical and pragmatic and even if she finds the notion of using the same powers the Lich King used to raise Scourge to raise new Forsaken utterly revolting, she does what needs to be done. She's in a bind and must act, even if doing so is via distasteful measures. She has two goals which are connected but come from two different places, although at the core it is largely about self preservation. Again, she's pragmatic and will not let an opportunity slip past due to some flimsy moral dilemma.

[Palladiamorsdeus]

The Valkyr also very obviously rebind the soul to to rotten flesh, since that was one form of punishment for failure all throughout Wrath. That was the victim was very much aware of their state, but unable to do much about it. From my understanding people raised in this manner suffer from a pretty much constant state of torment. Course if those raised are mindless ghouls, then it's just a rotting construct without said soul, like the death knight ghouls. So while yes, Forsaken have souls, not all undead do.

I have...no idea about abominations like Stitches. I'd assume not, since they are literally just a bunch of body parts sewn together and made animate, but an even scarier idea is that it's a conglomoration of souls in one rotting, cobbled together body.

And I'll repeat: If Sylvanas is raising ghouls to use as warfodder, that's one thing. It's still not good, but it's a lot more acceptable. If she is raising flat out Forsaken style, then there is no getting around the fact that it's just plain evil, neccesary or not. Personally, I am banking on ghouls.

[Saturo]

I have...no idea about abominations like Stitches. I'd assume not, since they are literally just a bunch of body parts sewn together and made animate, but an even scarier idea is that it's a conglomoration of souls in one rotting, cobbled together body.

http://www.wowwiki.com/Thaddius

"Thaddius, built from the flesh of women and children, it is said that their souls are fused together - eternally bound within that foul prison of flesh."

[Rhyela]

Ok, so even if I was wrong according to wowwiki, I still feel that they don't regret their state now. At least, they don't seem to whenever I play a Forsaken and do their quests. They're bitter and vengeful, but I've never really noticed a feeling of loss or sadness. They accept what they are, and move on. Not all of them of course, but the majority (or so it seems to me). Keep in mind I've never played an undead past level twenty-something, so I don't know about higher-level quests.

/shrug

[Palladiamorsdeus]

The undead in the Argent Crusade or Dawn would like to have a word with you. Also, keep in mind that the forsaken as a whole were once under the sway of Arthas, so a lot of that might still be coming from there. Also keep in mind that you don't really interact with the Forsaken in a large degree, same as every other race. Just because several quest givers are really, really angry, doesn't mean the race as a whole wouldn't love to go back to a normal way of life. But that's just guesswork on my part.

[Vephriel]

This is slightly off-topic/sort of on-topic, but mostly this thread just made me remember this.

In Brill there's one quest that really got to me when I first created an Undead character and was running through there. An NPC named Gretchen starts a quest called The Chill of Death. She basically tells you that she can feel her hands stiffening from the cold and her mind slowly deteriorating from the plague. All she wants is for you to get her materials so that she can sew a blanket to keep her warm enough to continue sewing body bags for the fallen Forsaken soldiers.

It was just so touching and saddening. Here she is falling apart and soon to lose herself completely, but she's so dedicated to Sylvanas and to her fellow undead that she just wants to be useful and keep doing her part in the war.

[Anansi]

This is slightly off-topic/sort of on-topic, but mostly this thread just made me remember this.

In Brill there's one quest that really got to me when I first created an Undead character and was running through there. An NPC named Gretchen starts a quest called The Chill of Death. She basically tells you that she can feel her hands stiffening from the cold and her mind slowly deteriorating from the plague. All she wants is for you to get her materials so that she can sew a blanket to keep her warm enough to continue sewing body bags for the fallen Forsaken soldiers.

It was just so touching and saddening. Here she is falling apart and soon to lose herself completely, but she's so dedicated to Sylvanas and to her fellow undead that she just wants to be useful and keep doing her part in the war.

Yeah, that NPC and her quest really stands out in my mind as well, it is a very poignant moment and I thought nicely struck a balance between the two worlds she inhabits. I agree with your assessment of touching and saddening, and it stands out for those things.

[Vephriel]

*nods* I suppose the reason I brought it up was just to illustrate the macabre sort of camaraderie the Forsaken have amongst each other. They are not a hive mind under hypnotic control by Sylvanas, Gretchen had no motivation other than her own for doing such a selfless thing. The sentiments will vary from individual to individual of course, but I think beneath everything there's a closer bond there that may not be evident on the surface, but it wraps them all together in this plight they must share. I find the Forsaken as a whole at once pitiable and respectable in their own crooked ways.

[Skyshot]

Ooh love it love it! The horde plot line thickens...

[Phantomwolf]

I can fully understand this...undead are well...dead. You can not reproduce in any sort of way unless you actually raise more undead. My vote is: Sylvanas for Warchief. XD

[Kalliope]

Can I point out that this is all being done so new undead players have some sort of backstory? The morality of it all is irrelevant.

[Palladiamorsdeus]

I absolutely disagree with you there. The morality doesn't matter? Are you even being serious? Even if you are a fan, you can at least admit that it's wrong. Even if it IS done for story exposition. It doesn't mean you have to not like them. But you can't just say the morality of the situation doesn't matter, ESPECIALLY when you consider that this war has two sides. Not everyone is going to agree that it doesn't matter.