cowmuflage wrote:I don't think dogs are as smart as some people say they are yeah they might be but there pack animals and most pack animals don't need to be that smart as they rely on the others in the pack.
Anthropological geekdom attack!
There is evidence that the hominids that became H. sapiens developed intelligence to deal with and communicate in a social environment, especially (With the later hominids) while hunting.
Perhaps for prey animals the opposite would be true, the game would be simply to stay together, but hunting packs need to organize, preplan, and communicate to have a successful hunt. Look at all the typically 'smart' critters out there i.e. dolphins, orcas, and wolves. All pack hunters.
Looking at Elephants, apes, and other smarty pants mostly-herbivores. it seems that their complicated social 'rules' may account for their relative brilliance, but that's not my area of expertise.
I can cite you some literature on the anthro stuff if you'd like, i know it's here someplace... *Asks Tily to fetch her tub o' anthro goodies.*
Proud owner of Nyx; an Original Grimtotem Spirit Guide.
Avatar and Signature Wolf by the inimitable Ket Shi. My Squiby Eggs!
Saturo nvm me then i read it wrong XD can i blame my cat near my keyboard for this? lol
No Dvatori you don't need to go into that i was just saying they are not nearly as smart as us like some people say they are Ie "there just like us but with four legs" group not you lol. Chimps are like us basicly. Its ravens you need to watch out for only ausse animal to find a way to EAT caine toads lol they found out if you flip them you don't die XD. Nothing beats us apes in smarty partyness lol.
*Nods at Dvatori*
Pack animals, like humans of wolves, are intelligent in a completely different way than say a raven. Ravens have been proven to exhibit dog-like intelligence, but can they communicate? Not really, at least not in the same way.
I actually have read that the opposite is true. While it is true that animals aren't quite on the same level as humans, I've read several animal cognition studies that find that animals are able to learn, memorize, sometimes even seem to recognize themselves in a mirror (and they say that self-awareness is on a pretty high level of intelligence). Even seemingly simple animals like rats are actually highly intelligent and have excellent memories. They can adapt, solve puzzles, and 9 times out of 10, outsmart us humans. To me, it seems more and more that we are not so above our animal brethren as we like to think.
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Slickrock wrote:Given their current trend, we'll probably get a spirit toucan that farts loops.
Seriously tough, you're right. Animals are smart, just in a different way. They might not be able to read, write or have an advanced language like we do, but they certainly aren't mindless.
That said, some animals clearly are not intelligent. I'm thinking cockroaches or fish now. :P
Um just to say something gold fish are infact pretty smart that hole 6 sec memory? thats total bullbull. Fish anit as thick as people make them out to be XD
sorry for that don't get me started on fish i'm a big fish geek.
i have got one tropical amazon basien tank with about 30 fish in it and 1 goldfish tank with a 12cm long guy in it oh and 1 cat but he don't care much for fish well sometimes he sees movement and that gets him going but hes not like trying to eat them thank god!. allso thinking bout getting a native New zealand fish tank too maybe even breed them.
Saturo wrote:That said, some animals clearly are not intelligent. I'm thinking cockroaches or fish now.
Neither of those are mammals or avian, so they weren't really what I was talking about. But you'd be right, I don't think they have real intelligence. But they sure do have some amazing survival instincts. I mean, cockroaches have existed for ages, and so have fish. They obviously know something we don't.
But I should have clarified that I was talking about mammals and birds. Many of them are pretty darned smart. I think I remember reading about a parrot that took mimicry to a new level. It used the words it had learned to actually let its owner know what it wanted. It wasn't just regurtitating what she said, it was telling her it either wanted fed or out or what-have-you, using the language it had learned. I mean, learning what word relates to what action or object is pretty amazing, and then going further by actually using that to convey its feelings or desires!
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Slickrock wrote:Given their current trend, we'll probably get a spirit toucan that farts loops.
As a professional dog trainer, I can honestly say that dogs are very intelligent. Those of you who say they arn't have obviously never seen a service dog in action. I've worked personally with some of the most amazing dogs you'll ever come across. These aren't dogs that just follow simple commands, these are dogs that literally take on the role of the person's eyes. They pay attention to traffic lights and other people, letting their owners know when it's safe to go on. If there owner's try to force them to go into a dangerous situation, these dog's will literally refuse to lead them into it.
I'm training an 11 week old saint bernard puppy right now, and it's amazing to see the little cogs in his mind turning. He catches on so fast to what I'm trying to tell him. I predominately train with a clicker as a marker. My click tells the dog he was doing something right at that moment in time, and he has to figure out what it was. My pup offers me different things that he thinks I want until he figures it out. I use training to open up a line of communication between me and my dogs. Dogs don't speak human languages, and we don't speak dog, so it's my job as a trainer to create a language that we can both understand. Once you've created that, the possibilities are endless.
A lot of dogs are forced to do everything. Forced to sit, forced to stay, forced to leave food, and then people wonder why the dog doesn't listen when they don't use force. They assume that the dog must be stupid.
All your teaching your dog at that point is "Do something I don't like and I'll punish you or force you to do otherwise, even if you have no idea what you did wrong", so of course they don't want to listen. Dogs live in the moment, and are driven to find happiness wherever they can. They don't always care that you'll punish them, because that bit of happiness is worth it to them. Some children still get into their parents makeup even though they'll get a spanking later. I know because my little sister did this, and so did I. I had severe ADHD growing up, and it didn't matter how many times you hit me afterward, I'd do it again because the pain was worth the reward. I could be beat until I bruised, and it didn't affect me, because I lived in the moment, like dogs do. (and needless to say, I was kind of a pain in the ass as a child...lol)
I was nearly 13 years old before my mind really started making the connection between what I did and why I was punished. Before that, the only way for it to really click was to catch me while I was doing something wrong, and dogs are like that too. If you don't correct a dog withing seconds of the bad behavior, they have almost no clue what you're mad at them for. And they still might not. After all, a dog sees nothing wrong with eating from the garbage can. A lot of them will look at you like "What's your problem, Lady? I just found this great food here!" the first couple times you get onto them for it.
Dogs have a simplistic, childlike mind. They're probably close to that of a human three-year old learning wise. That's still a lot of capability there. My 11 week old puppy can sit, bark, back up, shake his head no, touch my hand with his nose, and freestack(show dog stand, he is going to be shown) all on cue. He is also starting to learn the basics of heelwork, spin, and down.
A lot of dogs are either left outside or ignored, or not trained at all other than stopping problem behaviors(chewing, pottying indoors, ect.). These dogs never learn to learn. Their minds shut down from the boredom and they just get used to it. My two dogs are very much a part of my family. They get the best food I can afford(taste of the Wild:Fish) and they are treated as members of the family, albeit doggy ones. Granted, they still have rules and boundaries they have to follow. They sleep in crates at night and they're not allowed in the kitchen or bathroom, but I reward them for staying out of those areas. They're not allowed to beg for food or take food off of plates, or get into the bedroom garbage can, but they understand this. Even the little puppy knows he's not supposed to go into the kitchen, because I've led him out of there every time he tries to go in and gave him a treat once he was back in the correct room.
Dogs have a huge capacity to learn if you give them the time, energy, and patience. But that said, a dog isn't a human in a fur coat. They have their own needs and wants. Some of the worst behaved dogs I've met are small dogs that are treated like mini humans. Dogs need exercise and mental stimulation, not constant fussing over and tons of food. They can't hop on the computer or watch TV to entertain themselves like we can, you've got to give them something to do or they just develop problem behaviors out of boredom. especially since most of them were bred to do work of some sort. Hundreds of years of ingrained work instinct doesn't go away overnight. Most dogs love to work, in the same way we enjoy getting tired from swimming or playing sports. It's fun and stimulating to them. You're not being mean to your dog if you give him a fun job to do, like doing tricks, pulling a cart or retrieving things. Dogs love those things.
In any case, I'll get off my soap box now, but it's hard for me to ignore anyone dissing mah furkids.
and for the raven advocate, birds are smart too. I've met some amazingly smart parrots. I'd have to say the reasoning skills of the larger birds are quite remarkable, but I can teach a dog to do almost everything a bird can, save for flying and speaking human languages, but that's not the dog's fault, they don't exactly have the right vocal cords or speech centers in their brains. Dogs are scent orientated, not sound orientated like birds are.
Dogs can learn to recognize the different stop light colors and what they mean, as well as shape and scent recognition of articles. There's a trainer on Youtube called Kikopup, and she can show her dog something, and then tell her to go find the one that looks like it, and she can. Ie. "Orange*holds up orange*, find it!" *dog goes around the corner and finds the orange and brings it back.*
Well the thing is with ravens/crows are they have a a differnt type of smartness more like ours as in they are VERY good in the problem sovleing department and you can't teach a dog to do those things I:e puzzles. i had to say that as you said you could train a dog to do nearly every thing a bird can save for flying and speaking human languages you forgot proper problem solveing. Heck go watch a vid of Keas those birds can take apart a car in minutes!
BTW not saying dogs are not smart or anything just had to add something too your list of things u cant train a dog XD
Have you ever seen those food puzzles for dogs Comu? They are incredible problem solvers! Tily can open every door in our house and I sure didn't teach her that.
Especially service dogs like Kyonarai said. Those amazing animals actually realize their companion's needs and troubleshoot around them. I'm sorry, but to say those animals can't properly problem solve is just plain wrong.
...
But I'm done with this argument as of now. You know what they say about being right on the internet, of course.
Proud owner of Nyx; an Original Grimtotem Spirit Guide.
Avatar and Signature Wolf by the inimitable Ket Shi. My Squiby Eggs!
I have to admit that the Graphics for the wolves, especially the worgs, needs alot of work. I can't stand Worgs with their stupid run and horrible looking fur. The truth is Cats also need some updated graphics, its just that since they are better textured they don't seem as bad. Now when it come to having more realistic wolves, honestly the wolf graphics are an insignificant part of the game. There are more important things they can improve before whether wolves look decent (such as the stupig looking claws on almost all beasts!)
As for more Domestic Dogs as pets, that sounds great but theres one problem; Dogs are domesticated animals. All the tameable beasts of Warcraft, whether docile or deadly are wild animals. The truth is if Dogs were a bigger part of society in the game, realistically ANYONE not just hunters could go out and buy one. Also dogs serve their masters no matter who they are. Maybe if you went into a town of the opposite faction to tame one it would be feasible.
As for if Dogs could be their own pet family I think that would be awesome.
Talent Tree:
Tenacity
Diet:
Meat, Fish, Cheese
Ability: Grapple:
The user bites down on the target, preventing movement and causing [rank] threat over 5 seconds.
The ability is based off of how how people hunt with dogs in the real world. The dog(s) either bark at the target, focusing it's attention off the hunter or pin the prey down so that the hunter may dispatch the prey.
"The minute you die you see more than any other man has seen." - Alpha Card
oh sorry Dvatori i did not mean to say they could not do it i just ment not as well XD have you seen those birds? there going to take over one day just you wiat and see!
Yeah, but seriously tough, octopuses! They've done experiments, and they can remember, solve puzzles, and a number of other things. At least as good as birds, I might add.
Yeha don't forget they can fit in beer bottles, geez imagine that you open a beer and a octopus jumps out and takes you to japan if you know what i mean i'll stop now......
